Equal Time

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Last Thursday I Ticker-linked to a story about how the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, which is based in Michigan, had no problem with a local high school that used Native imagery. That prompted reader Patrick O’Neill to post the following comment:

Paul — Certainly not trying to create work for anyone, but perhaps an interview with the Chippewa representative would provide some insight into those tribes that have little or no problem with Native American imagery. It would be useful and provide us with the opposing views that, as you noted, were lacking at the symposium attended by you and Phil last week. Just a thought.

That was an excellent idea, so I contacted the Saginaw Chippewas’ PR director, Frank Cloutier (shown above). Our conversation forms the basis of my latest ESPN column.

I realize some of you may be experiencing, for lack of a better term, Native American mascot fatigue. Not trying to beat a dead horse, honest. Just trying to explore the many nuances of this complicated issue.

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PermaRec update: Another story about lost military medals being found and returned to their rightful owner is the basis of the latest entry on the Permanent Record Blog.

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Uni Watch News Ticker: The Lakers are adding a memorial patch for Jerry Buss. … According to a Dolphins beat writer, the team will have a new shade of aqua this season, because they went the color to look more like the sea (from Frankie Parish). … As expected, the Braves are retiring No. 10 for Chipper Jones. … Houston will have at least four football helmets next season (from John Okray). … Looks like Oregon hoops worked up some faux Cal jerseys, presumably to prepare for an upcoming game against them (from Jay Sullivan). … Unfuckingbelievable: Florida Atlantic has sold its football stadium naming rights to a corporate prison operator. … Never seen this before: an NFL bicycle hubcap kit (from Timothy A. Tryjankowski). … Attention Vikings fans: Apparently real Vikings did not wear horned helmets (from Britton Thomas). … Here’s another hat-over-mask combo from the Hockey City Classic, this time as worn by Miami’s goalie (from Mike Macksood). … New video board in the works for Virginia Tech (from Andrew Cosentino). … Magnificent striped stirrups for Boston College (Jay Sullivan again). … “The University of Nebraska has been scanning all of the previous copies of The Cornhusker, the school yearbook, going back over 100 years,” says Dave Feit. “As you can imagine, the pages are a treasure trove of uni history. For example, check out the sweaters given to the freshmen on the 1916 football team. The full archives can be found here. As a Nebraska alum, I’d kindly request that anybody who takes a look spend a few minutes to transcribe a page or two, so the collection can be searchable for future users.” … Grant Hill recently appeared on Wheel of Fortune and wore an odd warm-up top that had a Clippers logo over a vestigial Clippers script (from Marc Aune). … Super-cool ’80s-style pullover jersey for Oklahoma State baseball (Jay Sullivan yet again). … Here’s an article about the Blue Jays’ new BP cap (from Ryan Mallon). … Ben Zobrist of the Rays has been wearing vaguely Rays-themed pants on the golf course (from Mike Edgerley). … This sounds like something from the Onion, but it’s a legit story: The Postal Service is going into the apparel biz. Insert all the obvious jokes here. … Kody Sherlund notes an interesting trend in college hoops: “So far this season, Only USC and Georgetown have won their games when wearing the new Nike Hyper Elite basketball unis. UNC, Duke, Gonzaga, Michigan State, Ohio State, Texas, Kentucky, and Villanova all lost. In fact, Ohio State wore them twice, losing both. Eleven games, nine losses. These were all road games, but it’s still an unusually high percentage. Just some food for thought.” … Here’s the latest leak of the new USA soccer kits (from Chris McFarlane). … Here are the results of a poll to rank the best NESCAC hockey jerseys. … Interesting article with a faaaaascinating interactive photo about the ads on European hockey uniforms (from Adam Walter). … Who made these odd NFL visors? None other than Dr. Jack Kevorkian, the assisted-suicide guy. John Sobotka got those screen shots while watching the documentary about Kevorkian’s life. “There was this scene where various people were talking about how eccentric he was, how he had a million hobbies, talents, inventions, etc.,” says Joh. “At one point they said this: ‘He invented some kind of disposable sun visor that you could imprint team logos on. They were well executed but he had no idea how to market them. But like so many other things, he apparently lost interest in it.’” … Yesterday I mentioned that one of the Wisconsin goalies wore a hat over his mask for the Hockey City Classic. Actually, all of the Badger goalies did this. Interestingly, the hats were actually tied onto the masks. Here’s one of them being removed afterward. Also, the entire Wisconsin women’s team wore hats for pregame intros and after the game (all this from Nicole Haase). … The Lake Erie Monsters will wear Browns-themed uniforms this Saturday (from Tom Pachuta). … Eagle-eyed Kevin Pih spotted something intriguing in many of these Giants spring training photos: gray undervisors! Not sure if this represents an official change from the usual black, but I’ll try to find out.

 

147 comments to Equal Time

  • Terry | February 20, 2013 at 7:41 am |

    Good for FAU. Everyone has sponsorship money, why should they put themselves at a disadvantage? And, countries need prison management – our prison system is certainly among the most humane in the world.

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 8:17 am |

      Uh, sure.

      Further info here:
      http://www.nytimes.c...

      • BWags | February 20, 2013 at 9:16 am |

        My girlfriend works for Geo Group. She’s a special education teacher in the facility in my city for adolescent boys who are there for either mental health or drug and alcohol issues. So when I heard this news yesterday, I had mixed feelings about the naming rights/sponsorship. Someone has to run prisons and detention facilities, and I have no issue with the government using private contractors.

        On one hand, a relationship between a prison management company and a college is disconcerting. On the other, Geo Group is not just law-enforcement. They employ educators, counselors, administrators, etc… Not a bad thing for a college to associated with. Like I said…mixed feelings.

        • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 9:24 am |

          Someone has to run prisons and detention facilities, and I have no issue with the government using private contractors.

          Running a prison system is precisely the sort of thing that should NEVER be privatized, and especially not to a for-profit operator. Part of a society’s civic responsibility is managing its criminal justice and penal system. It’s something we *all* have a stake in. It should never be farmed out to a corporation.

        • BWags | February 20, 2013 at 9:35 am |

          I can understand that position, Paul. Respectfully, I’m not sure agree completely. However, I do agree that if the reports of civil liberties violations are true, then there is a major problem. In a perfect world, if certain minimum standards could be maintained, (which is obviously not happening) then maybe the discussion could be different.
          I don’t really know enough about the subject, nor am I trying to start an unnecessary flame-war, Paul, so moving on…

        • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 9:43 am |

          Civil tone appreciated, BWags. And I certainly don’t mean to insinuate anything negative about your girlfriend or her work. To be clear: I think even a company that behaves in an exemplary fashion (i.e., no civil rights violations, no mistreatment of prisoners, etc.) should not be running a prison. This is one of the most basic public responsibilities of any society, right up there with having a military. Shouldn’t be privatized, and should *absolutely* not be subject to a profit motive.

        • Dumb Guy | February 20, 2013 at 10:00 am |

          Stack ‘em like cord wood.

    • DJ | February 20, 2013 at 9:12 am |

      – our prison system is certainly among the most humane in the world.

      As Hemingway would say, “Isn’t it pretty to think so?”

    • Ben Fortney | February 20, 2013 at 11:08 am |

      From some previous work I know a little about the US prison system, and it is despicable. It should be a national disgrace and is in dire need of reform from top to bottom. If everyone (conservative, moderate, liberal) actually knew how much money we give away with little return and the negative social impact that’s produced there would be a serious movement to reform.

      Florida itself one of the worst and I really hope the students at FAU work to stop this ASAP.

      /rant

  • The Jeff | February 20, 2013 at 7:46 am |

    Ok Miami, if you’re going to make your aqua more blueish to “look like the sea”, then you can get rid of the navy. Yes, really. No, it doesn’t make you look tougher. Stop it. Fine, be that way, no one likes you anyway.

    • random reader | February 20, 2013 at 9:20 am |

      I guess this means there will be yet *another* blue/navy blue team in a professional American sport.

    • walter | February 20, 2013 at 9:32 am |

      Wait a minute- Aqua is that color that looks blue on one TV set, and green on a different one. Just a thought.

      • The Jeff | February 20, 2013 at 9:42 am |

        You do know that you can change the color settings on your TV, right?

        • Kidney Jess | February 20, 2013 at 3:14 pm |

          My TV set is fine, it’s the one at my parent’s house that is out of whack!

        • JimWa | February 20, 2013 at 3:45 pm |

          … or is it …?

  • Jim | February 20, 2013 at 7:54 am |

    BC’s new stirrups are nice, and they seem to be a required part of the uniform, along with traditional length pants. I’m noticing more and more amateur teams taking this approach, and I like it. Hopefully it instills in those who make it to the majors, a desire to keep wearing the uniform that way. Such a classic, timeless look.

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 8:15 am |

      Unfortunately, it appears to have the opposite effect. When young players make it to the majors, they’re free to wear their pants/socks however they like, and they often associate the old-school look with fuddy-duddy coaches who made them dress a certain way. Even if they don’t go thru that thought process, they’re often razzed by veterans who tell them, “You’re a big-leaguer now — you don’t have to wear your pants up like that anymore.” Sigh.

      • Le Cracquere | February 20, 2013 at 10:59 am |

        That sounds about right, depressingly enough. It also seems symptomatic of a larger problem among MLB players: almost like carnies, they’re a socially guarded sub-culture that, in many ways, are fundamentally alienated from the rubes who watch them. As a group, they almost seem to view appreciation of the game on any aesthetic levels as “fan stuff” that’s beneath a real professional–recall how nearly unanimous the players were about wanting Fenway Park torn down?

  • Arr Scott | February 20, 2013 at 8:08 am |

    Not uni-related, but I have a design in a contest for my local newspaper’s new online logo. I need your vote! Unless you prefer the really nice gold logo. Anyway, the link is:

    http://va.upickem.ne...

    Mine is the one with the lower-case i making the leg of the N (the newspaper’s online identity is Inside NoVA) or number 9 of 18. You have to sign in (works best with Facebook), go to the Vote tab, click Next to see the entries, and then scroll down to the “Record My Vote” button. You can vote daily – unless you prefer that really nice gold design, in which case maybe just vote the once.

  • JAson | February 20, 2013 at 8:13 am |

    For some reason the Giants have been using gray underbills on media day for the last few years…

    2012
    http://www.mlbphotos...

    2011
    http://www.examiner....

    • Andy | February 20, 2013 at 10:30 am |

      I played in the Giants organization for two years. When you go in to get headshots and whatnot taken in ST, they have all hat sizes and non-numbered jerseys on a table for you to put on. All hats had gray underbills and were old style wool instead of the new poly. Not sure why considering they have boxes upon boxes of the new style in the equipment room down the hall.

  • Bernard | February 20, 2013 at 8:15 am |

    Here’s the latest leak of the new USA soccer kits

    Can we all agree that USA soccer needs to just stick with this look, and stop fucking with it?

    • Ryan | February 20, 2013 at 8:54 am |

      I’d be okay if they kept the red and white hoops (which they currently wear as their change shirt) as a first shirt. But the crest we’ve seen for the centennial is vastly superior to the crappy one US Soccer uses.

      • Silver Creek Dawg | February 20, 2013 at 9:16 am |

        The red and white hoops is the first team shirt.

        The blue with white sleeves is the change strip.

        Love the badge for its simplicity; can we PLEASE make it permanent?

        • Ryan | February 20, 2013 at 1:59 pm |

          My bad. It just seems like whenever I see them, they wear the navy with white sleeves (which, by the way, reminds me of the “style” in the ’90s that paired sweater vests with t-shirts). Like, against Honduras, they wore the navy. Which I guess makes sense if they’re considering their shirts to be “home” and “away,” but they wore the exact same thing against Canada last month.

          As Mark Willis (whom Paul profiled with the MLB-to-soccer piece last week) notes in a piece on his blog, the USMNT has no strong visual identity the way other national teams do. The red and white hoops seems like the perfect way to create (and stick with) one that’s visually striking and appealing.

        • Ryan | February 20, 2013 at 2:16 pm |

          Part of the problem with the two shirts is a lack of consistency. Here’s their recent matches:

          A Honduras (white/white) – US wore navy/navy
          H Canada (white/white) – US wore navy/navy
          A Russia (red/red) – US wore navy/navy
          H Guatemala (blue/blue) – US wore red & white/white
          A Antigua & Barbuda (yellow/black) – US wore navy/white
          H Jamaica (yellow/black) – US wore red & white/navy
          A Jamaica (yellow/black) – US wore navy/white

          So it generally seems like they try to wear the hoops at home. Unless, as in Canada’s case, they visiting team is wearing all-white? In my mind, the only game in which the US should have worn their navy shirt is when they played in Russia. The hoops wouldn’t have clashed with Jamaica’s, Antigua & Barbuda’s, or Honduras’ first choice shirts.

          Any other respectable team in Europe or South America (and, presumably, elsewhere as well) goes with the first/change method, so it’s pointless, regardless of how other American sports use uniforms, to go with the home/away scheme.

        • TA | February 20, 2013 at 5:09 pm |

          Would be good to divide the analysis between official matches and friendlies. They’ve been pretty consistent with the first/change system for official matches, but not at all consistent for friendlies.

    • George Chilvers | February 20, 2013 at 8:58 am |

      I really like this one. Maybe just the addition of the 1950 red sash would have given it 10 out of 10, but simple is good.

      I’m not really a fan of the hoops. It doesn’t say USA football to me (and yes, I know, about the flag stripes etc).

      • Bernard | February 20, 2013 at 9:05 am |

        I’d be alright with adding the red sash, but they need to stick with it – permanently – to create a visual identity.

        And I’m with you Ryan – this crest is light-years better than the one they typically use.

        • DJ | February 20, 2013 at 9:21 am |

          Isn’t it supposed to be a throwback to the 1913 shirt? If that shirt did not have a sash, I wouldn’t want one on this shirt.

      • Connie DC | February 20, 2013 at 9:22 am |

        “I really like this one,” too. Seeing that shield on a white background takes one back to the super-cool look of the Jesse Owens era. Keep the shield!

        But George is wrong (sad, but it can’t be helped) about the red diagonal sash and wronger about the ted-and-white hoops. It’s one of my favorite unis, and would do well as an alternate/away-game jersey when they can’t wear white. Get rid of those blue things with the white sleeves.

        Speaking of George and his archipelago, Irish national times haven’t been doing very well lately. The soccer squad struggles with the Faroe Islands and loses 6-0 to Germany. In Dublin. Rugby hopes seemed brighter, especially when the lads beat defending champion Wales in the opening game of the Six Nations tourney, but then England came to Dublin with a young untested squad and beat us 12-6. In slashing chilly rain and wind – our weather! Worst visit since Cromwell.

        • Connie DC | February 20, 2013 at 9:23 am |

          red-and-white hoops.

    • DB | February 20, 2013 at 9:03 am |

      Crest, yes. I’m ok with the hoops on the current shirt though

    • Shane | February 20, 2013 at 11:12 am |

      But how will we ever stick ghost sashes on a jersey that pretty?

  • Bobby | February 20, 2013 at 8:18 am |

    Just a note cause its bothering me as a student at one of the schools that had the Hyper Elite uniforms. Villanova wore them again Saturday at UConn and won.

    • Ken | February 20, 2013 at 3:21 pm |

      Beat me to it…\\V//

  • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 8:29 am |

    Today’s ESPN column is up:
    http://espn.go.com/b...

    • Arr Scott | February 20, 2013 at 8:36 am |

      Great piece!

    • David T | February 20, 2013 at 9:02 am |

      Good work on this, Paul.

    • Tom V. | February 20, 2013 at 9:06 am |

      Haven’t read the ESPN piece yet but there is no fatigue on this issue in my book, love to hear the updates and furthermore it is incredibly commendable you’ve allowed both sides to be heard.

      • walter | February 20, 2013 at 9:39 am |

        I’ll second that sentiment. This subject is a rich mine of news. And I find a surprising degree of subtlety delineating pro and con opinions.

    • Jason M (DC) | February 20, 2013 at 9:10 am |

      Great interview. I love how he suggests that a name be used to help educate folks about Native Americans. It kind of makes me want to go to Central Michigan now.

      I’m sure pro football fans around here in DC would be disappointed to read that. And baseball fans in Atlanta.

      • Mainspark | February 20, 2013 at 10:48 am |

        According to the interview; “There’s nothing derogatory about “Warriors” or “Braves.” There’s nothing derogatory about “Indian.” But terms like “Redskin” or “Half-Breed,” those are derogatory terms to us.” So I think Mr. Coultier is OK with the Major League Baseball team in Atlanta keeping its name.

        • Jason M (DC) | February 20, 2013 at 10:56 am |

          Sorry. You’re right. I was also thinking about this response regarding pro teams:

          “If they’re not going to educate and they feel no obligation [to do so], then they have no right to use this imagery. They shouldn’t have that privilege if they’re not going to celebrate where it comes from.”

    • BWags | February 20, 2013 at 9:23 am |

      Nice work, Paul. Mr. Cloutier’s approach is a refreshing break from the typical shouting match that inevitably evolves from a sensitive subject like this. Please realize, I’m not blaming the shouting on Paul or anyone specifically. When race/cultural issues are juxtaposed onto the fierce loyalties associated with sports team and their histories, there are going to be strong opinions.

      Mr. Cloutier’s discussion summarizes my own feelings on the issue much better that I could have. Kudos, to you Paul on a good interview.

    • Robert Eden | February 20, 2013 at 9:23 am |

      Great piece. My thought is that his thoughts on the issue are the most productive and least divisive of any that I have read. Just superb.

    • TomServaux96 | February 20, 2013 at 9:45 am |

      Great work on this piece, Paul. I appreciate that Mr. Cloutier is trying to turn the mascot issue into a positive, and I also appreciate your “equal time” approach. Kudos all around.

    • Patrick O'Neill | February 20, 2013 at 10:09 am |

      Wow. Thanks for the “shout-out” Paul and more importantly, thanks for providing a reasoned and nuanced view of the issues as expressed by Mr. Clouiter. This is what makes UniWatch such a great site. Patrick O’Neill a/k/a “Mainspark”

    • Brian | February 20, 2013 at 11:08 am |

      Great article, I am a 2008 graduate of Central Michigan University and it was nice to see the point of view of the Chippewa tribe. In comparison to Florida State’s use of Native American imagery there are some differences; outside of the Chippewa nickname CMU does not use other Native American images. The CMU logo used for sports is a generic “flying c” logo and unlike FSU’s Osceola CMU does not have a mascot. I have also attached a link to CMU’s policy concerning the Chippewa nickname.

      http://www.cmuchippe...

    • Brian | February 20, 2013 at 11:15 am |

      Contest idea: imagine that the Redskins would drop the current name in favor of establishing a relationship with a local tribe, and would embark on an educational program and other things – like CMU and the Chippewas – to earn permission to use the tribe’s name. Pick a local tribe and design that uniform!

      • Arr Scott | February 20, 2013 at 2:57 pm |

        “Pick a local tribe.” Aye, there’s the rub. Among the chief problems facing DC-area Native tribes are that 1) They’re extraordinarily small in population, thanks to, let’s be generous and say “the early date of their contact with white settlers” and 2) Several of the tribes that do survive are not recognized by the federal government.

        Here are some modern tribal groups in the region, some of which are only state, not federally recognized:

        http://www.ewebtribe...

        A pertinent tribal group in the area that not only survives from first contact with John Smith but gave its name to the city’s defining geographic feature:

        http://en.wikipedia....

        Or the Redskins could go the Blackhawks route and pay tribute to Chief Powhatan, who’s sort of like the Kamehameha of the Mid-Atlantic:

        http://en.wikipedia....

        Today, there are various small tribal groups descended from the peoples Powhatan united, many of them still vying for state and federal recognition. If anyone would have an interest in leveraging an NFL team’s identity and “educational” interest in “honoring” them, it may be the Powhatans:

        http://en.wikipedia....

        Obviously, there’s no amount of lipstick that can disguise the pig of the name “Redskins,” but if the Skins wanted to keep the Indian imagery with a not blatantly bigoted name like Warriors, then reaching out to the Powhatans might be their best bet.

    • PaulS | February 20, 2013 at 3:58 pm |

      Finally, someone actually asked a Native American what they thought about the latest hullabaloo. The Saginaw Chippewa tribe and CMU have an outstanding relationship and despite its reputation as Party Central, there is mutual respect with the tribe and the student/alumni population. If other schools had the same relationship, maybe they wouldn’t have changed their names. Case in point, Eastern Michigan, formerly the Hurons, now the (yawwnn) Eagles. Frankly, if anyone from EMU had even CONTACTED the tribe, they’d still be the Hurons. Stupid do-gooders that forced the change down the throat of the school, and never asked the tribe’s opinion.

      The MCHR action is the dumbest example; in it, they’re not saying that the Native studens are being held back by the nickname issue: their claim is that every student, of any ethnicity, is receiving an inferior education because of the nickname. Bit of a stretch, I think.

      I’ll state my position on this: if you feel comfortable walking up to a person and using the name without the chance of being punched in the nose, it’s not a bad nickname.

      • PaulS | February 20, 2013 at 4:37 pm |

        By the way… Fire up Chips!!!

    • Scott | February 20, 2013 at 4:41 pm |

      I agree with this gentleman’s position. I have in the past disagreed with Paul’s position that all native american names and imagery was inherently wrong due to the fact that they were oppressed in the past. Just like the Fighting Irish is not derogatory toward the Irish, Braves is not derogatory toward N. Americans. I am all for asking the people affected how they feel.

    • Jeff Vanderziel | February 21, 2013 at 6:58 am |

      Great interview Paul. As someone who teaches on the issue of cultural appropriation I really appreciate all of your contributions. I think that the link between the use of symbolism/imagery and education is critical.

  • Dumb Guy | February 20, 2013 at 8:31 am |

    “Houston will have 4 helmets this year…”

    That’s only 3 too many (and #2 is illegible!!)

    • Jeff | February 20, 2013 at 10:47 am |

      And when did they change their logo to the ThunderCats logo? It’s not exact, but it’s awfully close.

  • Arr Scott | February 20, 2013 at 8:33 am |

    Dodgers roll out new marketing campaign: “A Whole New Blue”:

    http://losangeles.do...

    Though if America had effective truth-in-advertising laws, it would be “The Same Old Blue,” since the team is in fact still wearing royal blue like always.

  • WFY | February 20, 2013 at 8:33 am |

    I’m looking forward to the interview with Frank Cloutier. I hope we hear from more nations on the subject.

  • Dane | February 20, 2013 at 8:39 am |

    Nice little article about the costs associated with rebranding after a college switches conferences.

    http://espn.go.com/b...

  • Frank | February 20, 2013 at 8:43 am |

    Is it just me or does the Houston helmet on the right look VERY Penn State-ish?

  • Marc-Louis Paprzyca | February 20, 2013 at 8:45 am |

    I would like to know who made the toques for the Wisconsin goalies. Those were obviously made by hand which is cool.

    On another note, the Wisconsin women’s team did not play at the Hockey City Classic. I don’t know where those pictures were from.

    • Dane | February 20, 2013 at 8:57 am |

      It looks like the Wisconsin women’s pictures were from the Camp Randall Classic back in 2010.

    • DJ | February 20, 2013 at 9:01 am |

      Correct. You can see an artificial football surface in the background of the pre-game photo; lake effect snow covered the floor of Soldier Field on Sunday. Also, the Adidas branding on the boards and the Wisconsin-specific ads inside and outside makes me think that these were photos of an outdoor game at Camp Randall.

    • Nicole | February 20, 2013 at 9:10 pm |

      Yeah, they’re from the Camp Randall game. I mentioned that in the email to Paul, but I might not have made it clear.

      I also mentioned that Badger men’s goalie Scott Gudmandson wore a knit hat during the game at Camp Randall in 2010.

      The hats were purchased locally in Madison. The tweets about them usually included @BuyLocalBuyWisc and she mentions in her profile that she’s a knitter. A check of her feed shows she told someone they were made special to fit on the helmets. My guess is she takes orders …

  • Bernard | February 20, 2013 at 8:55 am |

    Yes it was BFBS, and yes they lost, but I thought Texas looked pretty sharp in their latest Hyper Elites. The longhorn logo really lends itself to chest placement.

  • El T of DC | February 20, 2013 at 9:00 am |

    Hey Paul,

    Great to see Nebraska doing the digital thing with the yearbooks.

    The Arizona wildcats called, they want their logo back. First time I have seen this Nebraskafication of the serif block elements that U of A have used for decades.

    I kinda like it to be totally honest. Historically, I might add that Nebraska was on the other side of logo pilfering scheme late in the last millenium when NBC (now a minion of Comcast) introduced a new logo without due diligence and got smacked down by the Cornhuskers in court.

    Surely you have coverage on that debacle… right

  • TheBenJye | February 20, 2013 at 9:12 am |

    Absolutely awesome column piece, Paul. One of the reasons I think many of us come to this site is the fact that debate and open-mindedness among all subjects is both encouraged and respected. Great job on getting “the other side” of this story, and thanks to Mr. Cloutier for being so informative and open.

  • Paul M. | February 20, 2013 at 9:17 am |

    Paul,

    Did your discussion with him change or perhaps influence the way you may present your personal feelings on use of Native imagery going forward?

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 9:21 am |

      Actually, his position reinforces what I’ve been saying all along, which is that Natives should get to decide how they’re depicted. In Frank’s case, he thinks it’s fine under certain conditions (no derogatory terms like “Redskins,” earn the privilege by including educational programs about Native culture, etc.). Sounds reasonable to me. Doesn’t conflict at all with what I’ve been saying here for months now.

      • Connie DC | February 20, 2013 at 9:26 am |

        You got it, boss.

      • Paul M. | February 20, 2013 at 9:35 am |

        Yes, I can see that it is on par with what you have been saying all along.

        My high school, Roy C. Ketcham, is among many Hudson Valley / uptate NY (where many many towns are named for Indians, like Wappingers and Poughkeepse) institutions that use the name “Indians” and even has an Indian mascot (even the city of Poughkeepsie seal has an Indian present in the logo)…though it is presented in a “Charactiture” sense (cartoon like over-sized head / traditional garbm, etc.) and I feel that this is non-offensive…where does the line become drawn at where the community (which may have little to no Natives present) is allowed to set its own boundries on this topic vs. a overall sense of another community influencing its own views…(i.e., ok for us, but not for you kind of attitude…sorry if that’s worded poorly)

        • walter | February 20, 2013 at 10:15 am |

          One of the contentious issues of the mascot discussion is addressed here. I grew up in front of a TV set; I was in thrall to cartoon characters such as Hashimoto-san, Speedy Gonzalez, and Chollie (Mr. Magoo). I took these cute people to heart, but I can’t testify the creators of these characters had similarly pure motives. The love was my fabrication. I’ll bet a similar relationship exists between Chief Wahoo and lifelong fans of Cleveland baseball.

      • Juke Early | February 20, 2013 at 9:49 am |

        Agreed. But lots of “people” are willing to sell out or sell-in, for the right price too. Teams in the early 20th Century, school or otherwise, are now populated by those who have very little sense of history other than their own. Especially with regards to those involved with sports – a year ago is tantamount to 20.

        As with many things, I understand human frailty. Sadly, even good things have a flip-side. I know indigenous native American tribes have been recouping historical losses of their people by casino ownership. Gambling is not a good thing in any other regard, nor are its ancillary pursuits.

        If a native tribe & its leadership approve some local/regional use, fine. It’s their call. It has no bearing on the use of a racial slur naming a major sports franchise, in the Capitol of the so called Land of the Free. Unless “land of the free” means free to be a racially insensitive ignoramous.

      • ChrisH | February 20, 2013 at 11:31 am |

        If Cloutier’s position reinforces your own stance, I don’t consider that “equal time”, ‘the other side’, etc.
        That said, the general statements, indifference, and/or silence from the front offices of professional franchises does little to bolster support for continued use of American Indian-based wordmarks and logos. To rely primarily on passionate (not always clear-thinking and articulate)fanbases to “fight for Old DC”, so to speak, in the public square may not be the best approach to change hearts and minds of those both inside and outside the American Indian population.

        • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 11:55 am |

          If Cloutier’s position reinforces your own stance, I don’t consider that “equal time”, ‘the other side’, etc.

          It’s “the other side” of what the people quoted in last week’s column were saying. They had a monolithic opposition to any use of any Native imagery. Cloutier does not.

          I didn’t present my own opinions in either piece.

  • random reader | February 20, 2013 at 9:17 am |

    About Grant Hill’s Clippers shirt:

    That is what Adidas has manufactured as this season’s NBA warmup top. They all have the primary logo over a tonal/vestigal wordmark of the respective team.

    http://store.nba.com...

    • Rob S | February 20, 2013 at 9:33 am |

      The Spurs one is kind of amusing.

  • Del Monte | February 20, 2013 at 9:19 am |

    Aww, how cute! Brandon Crawford gave birth to a baby pineapple!

  • Paul M. | February 20, 2013 at 9:20 am |

    Any chance that the Phillies will bring back the baby blues/maroon for a throwback soon?

    (I think I may be the only person who actually liked those)

    http://www.ebay.com/...

    • ChrisH | February 20, 2013 at 9:28 am |

      I think the Phils are throwing back to 1991 (the last year they wore the maroon pinstripes full time) sometime in August for a home game…unsure on whether the powder blues will be worn for an away game this season(personally I hope not since I’m not a big fan of them).

      • Paul M. | February 20, 2013 at 9:47 am |

        If that’s true…I may have to drive on down to Philly for that!

        • urbanleftbehind | February 20, 2013 at 11:05 am |

          They should wear the baby blues at home against either Pittsburgh (yellow/yellow), Mets (blue softball top), or Nats(-as-pre-1992 white Expos).

        • BurghFan | February 21, 2013 at 5:01 am |

          August 23: “Turning the clocks back to 1991 – the Phils’ final season in burgundy pinstripes. A complete 90′s flavor including characters, music and the always popular themed player headshots on Phanavision. Phillies and D’Backs players and coaches will wear retro uniforms from the 90′s.” (from phillies.com’s promotional schedule)

    • Arr Scott | February 20, 2013 at 11:13 am |

      You’re not alone – the Phillies in powder blue are among my favorite unis of all time, and judging by the jersey choices of the 25,000 Phillies fans who used to come to every Phils game in DC, a widespread favorite look among Phanatics.

      • walter | February 20, 2013 at 5:55 pm |

        I hope if and when this happens, zippers are involved.

  • random reader | February 20, 2013 at 9:23 am |

    And a note about the SF Giants:

    Their players wear the grey undervisor caps only for Photo Day—probably because the team feels the contrast between grey and black looks better on the official MLB mugshots. The Phillies used to do this up until one or two seasons ago while the Braves and Mariners had done this more sparingly (at least as of last year).

    I don’t know if the Giants order grey-underbrim hats from New Era or if they are still using old stock from five years ago.

    • Derek | February 20, 2013 at 1:42 pm |

      That’s exactly the reason. When photos are taken with the black underbill, the hat definition gets washed out. Many teams continue to use gray underbills for PR shots. The use of the old hats is intentional, and not just to exhaust old inventory stock.

  • walter | February 20, 2013 at 9:25 am |

    “Super-cool ’80s-style pullover jersey for Oklahoma State baseball”

    I like any wordmark where the “A”s look like the towers of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge!

  • Chris Holder | February 20, 2013 at 9:40 am |

    The most surprising thing to me about that Grant Hill picture? The fact that Grant Hill is apparently still playing basketball in 2013. I thought the guy retired years ago.

  • Hodges14 | February 20, 2013 at 9:40 am |

    PL, for once, you have finally done the right thing. Instead of continuously badgering us with your view and not giving the other side the time of day, you actually got off your high horse and actually heard someone out. That shows maturity in my book.

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 9:47 am |

      Boy, there’s a gold star I can be proud to put on my wall, eh?

      As already noted in an earlier comment, Frank Cloutier’s thoughts in today’s ESPN column are consistent with and generally reinforce what I’ve been saying on this topic all along. If you think I simply “heard him out,” then you haven’t been paying much attention to my position.

      • Teebz | February 20, 2013 at 10:43 am |

        It’s easier to bitch with no knowledge than to listen and gain knowledge, Paul. Ignorance, after all, is bliss. ;o)

      • hodges14 | February 20, 2013 at 3:40 pm |

        Considering the majority of the posts over the past couple of weeks had at least one mention of Native American Logo controversy, and it was 99% one sided, I feel justified in making that statement. The compromise here that the head of the Chippewa nation is definitely on target and something worth proposing in the future. Before the Braves, Indians, Redskins, Blackhawks, etc. bring in new players, have a representative of a local tribe talk about what it means to be a (insert name here). That’s freakin’ brilliant, and it generates good PR.

  • PodKATT | February 20, 2013 at 9:47 am |

    For the first time in about a decade, LSU wore all-black at a basketball game. Nothing different, design wise, from the normal kit, just a palette swap. No special occasion.

    http://cdn0.sbnation...

    • walter | February 20, 2013 at 10:23 am |

      I like it fine. That’s a good look! I’ve sketched the Lakers in similar garb.

  • Ben D. | February 20, 2013 at 9:50 am |

    Here’s the first good move the D-Backs have made this entire offseason:
    http://sports.yahoo....

  • Flip | February 20, 2013 at 9:53 am |

    RE: USPS clothing line — guess I’ll have to snag me some of those blue bermuda shorts with navy knee tops.

    • urbanleftbehind | February 20, 2013 at 11:06 am |

      Will they be selling blue or white plastic pith helmets – me want one!

    • Chris Holder | February 20, 2013 at 11:20 am |

      That sounds Cliff Clavin-approved.

      • El T of DC | February 20, 2013 at 11:52 am |

        You sir have the soul of an adman of the first order!

        I can see the USPS designs Clavenley presented on the catwalk advert right now. Brilliant!

    • Dumb Guy | February 20, 2013 at 3:27 pm |

      I want to go Postal (fashion-wise that is)!!

  • Christian | February 20, 2013 at 10:53 am |

    The Giants always have gray undervisors for photo day. They’ve always done it ever since the gray undervisors changed to black

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 11:15 am |

      That’s such an endearingly odd preseason detail, like the Red Wings’ block-lettered NOBs or the Steelers’ numberless helmets. Love it!

    • Ben Fortney | February 20, 2013 at 11:43 am |

      Last year I noticed the Braves do it sometimes as well.

      I figured it was an old stock thing.

  • Nick | February 20, 2013 at 11:22 am |

    from the internet: “What all 32 NFL logos would look like if the teams moved to England” http://daveartlocker...

    • M.Princip | February 20, 2013 at 3:09 pm |

      wow…Wow…WOW! Awesome!

    • Dumb Guy | February 20, 2013 at 3:32 pm |

      Brilliant! I’m gobsmacked!

      btw: Is your wife a goer? KnowatImean? Wink wink nudge nudge.

    • Arr Scott | February 20, 2013 at 4:49 pm |

      I like the attempt to change Washington to an altogether different sort of Indian:

      http://4.bp.blogspot...

    • Mike Engle | February 20, 2013 at 5:08 pm |

      Holy hell, that was hysterical. Especially the attempt to curry favor among the minority with that one particular logo tweak.

  • Brad Susany | February 20, 2013 at 11:28 am |

    1: love the Oklahoma state baseball jerseys … LOVE them! Anyone know where I can get one ? Or enter yet a Stanford one?

    2: love the USA soccer kits

    3: in the jack kavorkian line… ‘It was well excecuted” .. Made me laugh..

    • Ben Fortney | February 20, 2013 at 11:41 am |

      1: totally agree, those things are great

      2a: I really hope the positive reaction makes US Soccer finally scuttle that terrible crest.

      2b: I’ve already started scouring ebay for stars/stripes crests to DIY something similar.

  • Chris | February 20, 2013 at 11:57 am |

    Love the Viking entry in the ticker! I have a family friend who lives in Iceland and is a living breathing Viking and the last time he was out to visit he brought up this very issue and I had never known! You might think it is similar to the Native American issue but it is quite the opposite according to him. They just laugh at us and think we are morons! He explained the whole thing to me but honestly don’t remember much because he is sometimes hard to understand

    • Tim M. | February 20, 2013 at 1:10 pm |

      I’m guessing real vikings probably didn’t wear purple either…. ;-)

  • PG-13 | February 20, 2013 at 12:01 pm |

    NFL logos re-imagined from a British perspective…

    http://daveartlocker...

    Some good stuff in there!

    • JimWa | February 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm |

      I swear I’ve seen that somewhere before … :)

  • Scott | February 20, 2013 at 12:20 pm |

    Paul, I really enjoyed your espn article. If you were consistently making the same point and speculating on what Dan Snyder thought about “Redskins,” I would surely be fatigued by now. However, you have shown off your journalistic skills by offering several viewpoints by individuals with different backgrounds. I really appreciate the approach you have taken on this issue. Whether it is just coincidence or not, I have heard this issue being raised more and more in the past few months through several media outlets.
    I would add that the college I attended, Miami University, changed it’s mascot back in the 90′s away from the Redskins and to RedHawks. At the time I was a bit disappointed because of the history that mascot had at the school. However, after having a bit of time to digest the issue, it was easy for me to see the the negative history of the word “redskin” far outweighed the comparatively meaningless tradition attained through sport.

  • Ben Fortney | February 20, 2013 at 12:28 pm |

    Don’t know if we talked about this before, but one of my favorite DC History blogs just retweeted a September post on names for the 1905 version of the Senators.

    Some of the proposed include: Debutantes, Exceptionals, Soldiers, Lowlanders, Capitolines and the writers personal favorite Teddies!

    • James A | February 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm |

      I rather like “Ace of Clubs” and “Ace of Diamonds”

  • Jacob Sherman | February 20, 2013 at 12:30 pm |

    PermaRec misspelling:

    “Fast forward to last Ocober, when the manager of a California apartment complex found a box containing letters and a Purple Heart in an old storage locker…”

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 12:34 pm |

      Got it. Thanks!

  • JEDI54 | February 20, 2013 at 12:38 pm |

    The two hats in the middle for the Houston Cougars are the best. I like them alot.

  • Kevin Allen | February 20, 2013 at 1:20 pm |

    Im a football coach looking for a job, so when I notice an opening I’ll do a little invesigating via the web. I came upon this picture while looking at Nogales (AZ) high school. I’m not sure I have seen a uniform that bleeds the dark color into the front of the away jersey. My only other thought was that it was maybe cut that way because both shots appear to be a scrimmage. Have you seen this before?

    http://images.berecr...

    http://images.berecr...

  • Anthony Nuccio | February 20, 2013 at 1:52 pm |

    I definitely enjoyed reading the ESPN piece for today. Mr. Cloutier’s opinion on Native American imagery has been the one that I have shared since I began thinking about the imagery issues. Education should be the primary focus of using NA symbolism, especially when one takes what has happened to their population since the colonialism directed towards the Americas. It also provides a “gray area” in some aspects, compared to the black and white issue people try to make it look like.

  • Josh | February 20, 2013 at 3:41 pm |

    Evem though we might be having overload of the Naive American topic, Has anyone else pointed out that the American Indian Center of Chicago has a partnership with the Chicago Blackhawks? Found it very fascinating given the debates here.

  • Michael Emody | February 20, 2013 at 3:49 pm |

    Here’s a bit of
    strangeness.

    • Paul Lukas | February 20, 2013 at 3:52 pm |

      Someone didn’t read today’s Ticker very closely. Or today’s comments.

  • Will | February 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm |

    Kevorkian bit…”well executed”…*snicker*

    • Joe | February 20, 2013 at 4:02 pm |

      ^batting helmets

  • anthony | February 20, 2013 at 5:51 pm |

    Great article Paul in ESPN.

    My wife was born and raised in Western Michigan and is one-half native american. We discuss this topic all the time. She HATES the name Redskins, as to her, it’s a total slur. As a big football fan (mostly NCAA) she is amazed that in the this day-and-age and at the dawn of the 21st century, there are people who think that calling a football team “redskins” is morally acceptable and justified because it’s been their name since 1932.

    I showed her an ad I remember from the 1980′s that showed different helmets with ethnic slurs for Jews, Italians, and African Americans on them (as logos) with the tag line, “How would you feel?” — She said that alone should have made the organization change their name.

  • walter | February 20, 2013 at 5:52 pm |

    By the way, Bitchin’ COTD. It reminds me of The Information by Beck. I take my promo CDs and give them custom covers, after listening to them.

  • Anjroo | February 20, 2013 at 6:31 pm |

    What if all the NFL logos were British? http://daveartlocker...

  • Phil Hecken | February 20, 2013 at 6:58 pm |

    Just getting to the boards today…

    I bet no one has posted this awesome “What if All NFL Logos were British?” yet.

    • Anjroo | February 20, 2013 at 7:42 pm |

      Beat you by a few minutes, you stripey wotsit.

    • Anjroo | February 20, 2013 at 7:43 pm |

      …and PG-13 beat us by a good six hours

  • Borg | February 20, 2013 at 7:01 pm |

    Augustana College (IL) changed to a horn-less Viking in 2011, citing similar research. The new look is shown here.

  • Borg | February 20, 2013 at 7:02 pm |
  • Paul H | February 20, 2013 at 8:19 pm |

    Paul your ESPN article today was the best one yet on the use of Native American mascots. I loved hearing from the actual people that this issue really hits home with. His idea of education with use of the names is amazing.

  • Mike Engle on iPad | February 20, 2013 at 11:53 pm |

    http://sports.yahoo....

    Jump to 29s, Jakub Voracek is missing a Flyers logo helmet decal on one side.

  • Tim West | February 21, 2013 at 2:02 am |

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the extensive discussion. Yes, UniWatch is about uniforms and it’s fun to talk about the little stuff, but when we have a chance to feature a major social debate like this-to bring new opinions forth, to encourage discussion, to maybe reach a moral consensus- that’s pretty damn awesome. Keep it up.