The video game leaks of that alternate Thunder uniform are coming from multiple sources now, so I’m inclined to think they’re legit — except for one thing: As you can see above, they misspelled “Thunder.” And it’s not just in that one screen shot — it’s also misspelled here and probably here (tough to be sure). Weird.
Typos notwithstanding, I don’t much care for this uni. I like old-school templates, but this one makes no sense for this team. No gold, no orange, nothing to connect it to the rest of the team’s identity system. Very odd choice, and a bad one.
I have a bunch of other NBA video leaks as well. More details on that tomorrow.
Meanwhile: New ESPN column today, on a topic I think everyone will enjoy — here you go.
Uni Watch Party Announcement: The next Uni Watch party will take place on Saturday, Nov. 3, 3pm, at Sheep Station in Brooklyn. That’s the day before the New York City Marathon, so I’m hoping any readers who are running the ’Thon will join us at the party (perhaps in your running attire..?). Unfortunately, Sheep Station doesn’t have pasta on the menu, but I’m going to ask them if they can provide some pasta for us. If they can’t/won’t, well, maybe beer counts as carbo-loading, yes? Looking forward to seeing everyone there.
PermaRec update: A note left on a mountain 40 years ago by a 13-year-old hiker has been found. Further details in the latest entry on the Permanent Record Blog.
Uni Watch News Ticker: New logo for the 2015 AFC Asian Cup soccer tournament (from Jeremy Brahm). … We’ve seen yarmulkes with MLB logos before, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen this wide a selection. Too bad about the mesh fabric, and it’d be better if the Expos design were multicolored instead of solid blue, but still pretty cool (from Jay Sullivan). … Also from Jay: Check out these little MLB jersey-shaped patches. … Ricko was going through his old files and found a 1978 Sports Illustrated piece about NFL players wearing glasses on the field and an ad for the “official training table foods” of the NFL. “I really wish that one had been in color,” says Ricko. … There’s a new book about the evolution of 100 iconic logos (thanks, Brinke). … Virginia Tech will be wearing a white helmet with no center stripe this weekend against Duke (from Alan Campbell). … Don Larsen, now 83 years old, is auctioning off the uniform for his perfect game (from Randy Williams). … New corporate douchebaggery dance partner for Dwyane Wade. … Here’s how Indiana’s basketball uniforms will look with the B1G logo. “Personally, I think it makes IU’s classic and simple jerseys look like complete shit,” says a disappointed Ryan Mandel. … More Heineken Cup rugby kits here. … Michigan coaches will wear “Chuckstrong” T-shirts, in support of Chuck Pagano, this weekend. ”¦ “Our local GNC had a meet-and-greet on Tuesday with New England Patriots linebacker Brandon Spikes,” says Dirk N. “They hung a few jerseys around, and I noticed they were old Reebok stock. I wonder how long it’ll take for the Nike jerseys to make it to the players’ public appearances?” ”¦ Here’s an article on English soccer NOB typos, although it’s kinda unsatisfying without any photo links (from Daniel Cruz). ”¦ Keith Goggin noticed lots of uni mistakes in a Ford commercial starring Derek Jeter: “Third base coach has the number wrong font. Then Jeter tries to score, and I noticed they put in a body double. When they show him from the back, crashing into the catcher, there’s the wrong font again. The ump has a patch over the MLB logo on his shirt, but not on his hat, which is scrunched up on the back of his head.” ”¦ A youth league in Berea, Ohio, dedicated a field to Lou Groza and dressed up as the Browns for the occasion. If you click through the photos, you’ll see that the kids’ jerseys and neck bumpers say, “Groza,” and — even better — their nose bumpers say, “The Toe”! (from Joeseph Bailey.) ”¦ It’s pretty sad when an MLB scoreboard operator doesn’t know that plural words don’t take apostrophes. Laren Richardson took that photo at AT&T Park last month. ”¦ On Monday I mentioned that the Indians had Photoshopped new skipper Terry Francona into an outdated uniform. That prompted the following from Paul Huffaker: “Even though the Indians changed to the no-piping look this year, all of their promo photos used the old blue piping jersey. This includes photos for newly acquired players like Johnny Damon back in May. And these are the same photos that were used on the scoreboard at the ballpark. It’s puzzling why they would not use the correct uniform when they made a big deal of changing it last season.” Indeed. … Here are Japan’s uniforms for the World Baseball Classic.
So… to honor Lou Groza, the kids dressed in Browns uniforms that didn’t exist during his career? Brilliant.
The jerseys were fine – no brown separation between the orange and white stripes.
Cleveland, of course, didn’t wear orange pants until well after Groza retired after 1967 (1975-83, 2003-04). They also didn’t wear those socks with the brown unis, that we know of (although they are the style worn with the white jerseys during Groza’s career).
no, The:
“A youth league in Berea, Ohio, dedicated a field to Lou Groza and dressed up as the Browns for the occasion”
they dressed as the Browns to honor the dedication of a field. they didnt dress as Groza
True… but c’mon, if a school in San Francisco named their field after Joe Montana and wore 1998 49ers uniforms for the occasion, it’d be a bit silly, don’t you think? Same thing here.
Love the Miniature Browns in the Orange Pants.
Here’s the color version of the “Training Table” photo (previously posted here on UW).
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Now, if we can only go back to 16 teams.
Wow, sleeves!
Richie Petitbon looks like he’s wearing a kid’s replica helmet.
George Halas – God Bless him – was known to be a weeee bit cheap in outfitting his Bears. He had an interest in a sporting goods company and through it would have many of the Bears wear the older Wilson helmets – complete with the white facemasks associated with college or other levels of football. Often the Bears would be wearing a variety of facemask colors and types – moreso than any other team. This led to the Bears having the rag-tag look that you see here and in many photos of the era.
Ditka said it best – Halas threw quarters around as if they were man-hole covers. He held a quarter in this hands so tight that the Eagle would scream ….
When the Bears moved from Wrigley Field to Soldier Field, he attempted to take hois wodden bleachers with him for use in the Soldier Field end zone, but they were condemned. God Bless him.
Cool.
Thanks.
I believe that NFL glasses article came out in the gameday mag back in the day ‘Pro!’. Or, do you think they ran the same article in two different mags? In any case, I dig the Goggles Pizano look.
No, it’s from PRO.
Paul misunderstood, I think.
Question about that article: Think Jim Jodat’s facemask is big enough?
Maybe HBO could do a series on this and call it “When It Was a Uniform.”
Cool PermaRecord entry today.
Very cool.
Just like the Spurs, the Thudner left a lot of room for ads…
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why didn’t the Cavs, Knicks, and Trail Blazers leave “a lot of room for ads” then?
Pumpkin pie? Is today’s ESPN article about pumpkin pie? Fingers crossed for a Lukas pumpkin pie article. Who doesn’t like pumpkin pie!
Actually, I don’t much care for pumpkin pie.
But I’d never say pumpkin pie is bad. It’s just not my thing.
Jeezus F*-ing Krist, Paul, I can’t belive you HATE pumpkin pie so much??!!
;^)
Some guys prefer sweet potato over pumpkin…
I happen to like both.
second that!!!
Damn you Paul with your not caring for pumpkin pie and eating of wing tips. Why do you HAVE to be so different just for the sake of being different all the time? We get it, you’re too cool and hip to dig on some pumpkin pie. Pumpkin pie is too main stream for the uni-guy. Whoopty-friggin-do. Mr. Fancy Pants non-pumpkin pie eater over here ;)
How about some pumpkin cheesecake? Does that work for you?
The sad, heretofore-secret truth:
I am a very picky eater.
The things I like (meats, sweets, shellfish), I like a LOT. And I very much enjoy cooking. But my range of tastes is limited.
In short: Pretty deep, not so wide.
Fair play. It’s not about stuffing your face, it’s about enjoying what you eat.
I can’t stand pumpkin pie. I used to love it but now I don’t even like the way it smells.
Sweet potato pie? I don’t even like the way that SOUNDS.
Pecan pie? The only bad thing about that is that my daughter can’t eat it because of her nut allergy.
Pie: Strawberry/rhubarb or GTFO.
(I also love apple.)
Oh, hell yea! I won’t kick the pumpkin out of bed, however I’ll do a turkey day jig for some strawberry rhubarb.
Pumpkin pie…..I wouldn’t trade it for anything…..(Apple’s 2nd)
Wisconsin = cranberry pie! Yum. I do like pumpkin also. At Thanksgiving, when my mom asks, “Pumpkin or cranberry?” I just say, “Yes, please!”
i wouldn’t mind if the Browns went back to Orange pants with the brown jersey top.. but that would mean they’d have to wear the brown top more..
Re: “There’s a new book about the evolution of 100 iconic logos (thanks, Brinke).”
There’s a strong uni connection with the old Bayer logos in that Bayer Leverkusen incorporates the 1891 lion along with the current Bayer logo into its crest. link
“New corporate douchebaggery dance partner for Dwyane Wade”
just how long before the big company in Oregon buys out this new company in China? hell, the facroties HAVE to be right next door to eachother, right?
Glad to see all those retired Florida Panthers “JetBlue” thirds found a nice new home in OKC.
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“Thudner”…. I guess that’s what happens when you outsource American programming jobs overseas….
(I realize that my redundancy was rather redundant in that comment)
I love this commercial.
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Except that NBA 2K13 was developed in California by Visual Concepts for 2k Sports, a NYC-based company.
So nobody can spell in this country.
Yeah, but can we be sure that all the developers were actually based in California?
They still could have outsourced some of the art to an overseas studios. It’s very very common in the video game industry. If you look at the credits of 2k12, in the art section, there is an “outsource manager.” So, it’s possible.
However, I’d like to think it’s the work of a disgruntled Sonics fan.
Well, it’s really not redundant. I mean, you could ousource them to… Canada or Mexico — technically not “overseas.”
It’s probably misspelled that way once in the master db. Should be easy to correct.
No, it’s a bad image file. The in-game uniform is created by mapping an image similar to this: link onto a 3D player model. They’d need to replace the flawed image with a corrected one.
Depending on how they have it programmed……it could very well be in a db as well. Considering my officemate is a consultant for EA games, I’m going to have to take his word for it.
That feature on NFL players wearing glasses sure doesn’t like like 1978-era Sports Illustrated to me. It looks more like it’s from Pro magazine.
16 NFL teams in 1978? Not so likely. 1968? sure.
Technically, Paul didn’t say the ad was from the same magazine, though it could be made a little clearer.
Definitely fits for 1967, though. A case could be made for 1968 as well, although the Steelers did switch from the “Batman” look to their current Northwestern-style stripes for the 1968 regular season.
I’d say 68 because of the players, notably Herb Adderley for the Packers. By 1970, he was with Dallas.
So the Thunder basically took the old Cincy Royals unis, flipped the stripe and made them even plainer…
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yep
To be extra nitpicky about the umpire in the Jeter commercial: 1) The shirt he is wearing is a model that has not been worn for several years now, and 2) An umpire should never have his mask in his right hand.
Current MLB umpire shirt:
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The right hand is reserved for making an out call. Making an out call with a mask in hand is a bad look. Mask is always in the left hand.
Let’s be honest… The biggest mistake in that commercial is Jeter bowling over the catcher. Has never happened and never will happen. And I say that as one of the biggest Yankee fans you will ever find.
IU’s simple and classic uniforms are already fucked over with a maker’s mark and, in all likelihood, an American flag. None of that shit belongs there. Buy your own uniforms and advertise one thing- the school!
One good thing about the Indiana look: It proves shoemakers, in this case Adidas, can make shoes without all the geegaws that draw attention to themselves. I wish more schools went route.
It could be worse. Look at every other Adidas school. Be lucky the design is still intact.
Correction:
Be grateful
UCLA insists on a traditional design for their men’s basketball uniforms. So it isn’t “every” Adidas school.
Based on my experience, it’s not necessarily that Adidas has no regard for tradition; if you insist on an old-school look (ND and Michigan football; IU and UCLA hoops), you’ll get it. Most teams are easily satisfied with the cookie-cutter “modern” look.
Good point. I’ve watched NC State change their uniforms about every other year since the 90’s and was happy with the throwbacks from 07-10, but they’re back on the wagon. Many teams like Michigan and Kansas had a pretty solid look, too.
Unfortunately, Adidas pretty much hired the Apex designers for these cookie-cutters. They all look like high school teams that flipped through the Adidas product guide and picked the stock uniform with the flare.
The flag patches went away link. I doubt they’re bringing them back now.
When did they rename it the “IG” Conference?
Curious about the yarmulkes: does anyone know if there’s a faction or denomination of Jewry that find this sort of style distasteful, or even irreligious? Like, anything other than solid black is no good or displeasing to God?
I was wondering similarly to some degree. I know nothing about yarmulkes (or kippahs as these were called in the ad), and very little about the religion. But those lids seem a bit gaudy to me.
Let the enlightening begin.
This is hearsay from an outsider (but I’m a real good listener) so here goes: Though the wearing of the kippah is considered a sacred duty, the garment itself is not sacred. The yarmulkes with the pop artwork are considered a good way to get little boys interested in wearing a skullcap that might otherwise seem wonky and uncool.
Each Jewish Movement (denomination) has its own customs or “rules” regarding Kippahs design, material and style. Many, if not most, allow for a fairly free degree of individual preference in the design. Many hotels in Jerusalem actually provide tourists with kippahs that have their hotel name and logo on it for visits to the Western Wall.
I don’t know if I can find a link, but Jordan Bastian (I think) reported the Indians had not received their piping-less jerseys in Goodyear when they did photo day. All of the official photos thus have them in their old jerseys. I imagine these were the images they had to go off of in their photoshopping, and so they used them. I imagine that next years promotional materials will be sans piping.
The NBA new uniform design motto: “Boring”.
tell that to the Nuggets
Today’s ESPN column is up:
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Am guessing this has been forwarded before, but the Bears asymmetricalness can be attributed to the fact that the gap is centered slightly above the horizonal center line, move it down and you get the symmetrical version Chris Bova did.
Solid column, Paul.
What’s the story behind the Cincinnati Tigers photo?
Thanks.
My guess is that the flaws in the Bears’ wishbone were intentional to get copyright protection. And I’ve always liked the way the “Y” in the Yankees’ monogram resembles a wishbone.
Wouldn’t you think these teams would want to wear something more original, more unique?
Yeah. Definitely. And that brings us to this.
That mock-up was done by Uni Watch reader Chris Bova. He wondered what a perfectly symmetrical version of the Bears’ logo would look like, so he created one. Looks better, doesn’t it?
No. No it doesn’t. Now it’s just another generic wishbone C.
And the Tigers don’t need to settle on one version of the Olde English D, nor do the Yankees need to pick a single interlocking NY.
Pick a lane, Paul. should it be unique or not?
Yes, the Tigers & Yankees do in fact need to pick one version of their logo. Having 4 different NYs is wrong, period.
I say, nay nay.
In theory, you’re probably correct. In practice, though, you can see that the jersey logo would not look as good on the cap and vice versa.
Au contraire! The jersey logo would look just fine on the cap. The cap logo would look OK, but not as good, on the jersey. And the print version of the logo looks terrible by comparison with the other versions in all instances, everywhere.
But there’s also no reason the Yankees couldn’t design a slightly tweaked One NY To Rule Them All. It’s not like graphic designers have never before faced the challenge of making a logo that works at multiple scales.
Clay High in Florida (along with what I’m sure are many other schools outside of Texas) wears the Wishbone C
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the bears logo is forever ruined now. my OCD is in hyper drive
yeah, God for-fucking-bid that in the age of Photoshop, a logo that looks as though it might have been hand-drawn should still exist.
A most excellent use of the word “wishbonery”.
I do believe that for awhile (the 80’s, I’m certain), the Bears “C” WAS symmetrical.
Thanks! I will admit to being rather pleased with that one myself.
Damn…not about pumpkin pie. Though it does concern a wishbone. Wishbones are in Turkeys. Turkeys are delicious. I’m happy.
…Thanksgiving must be around the corner.
ebay has a new logo. or at least it’s new to me.
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link.
The old one was a jumbly mess, so going to a consistent weight for the letters is an improvement… but it does come off as rather bland.
So eBay creates a new logo, but the new one still doesn’t use their unique and trademarked capitalization? Very odd.
Original ebay logo: feels like fringe, jumbled & unrefined without a hint of pretentiousness with some actual thought in the design.
New ebay logo: look at me, I typed out a logo [word] & colored each letter a different color so that looks like a [faux] original trendy bland corporate professional design of 2012! Ooo, I’m so smart & creative!
Btw the new Arby’s logo pisses me off too. It sucks. 3-D hat with too much gradient (good luck making that look good on a carton of fries) with a flat Adidas rip-off font & an apostrophe with too much power. A new logo won’t suddenly make your overpriced warehouse food cheaper.
Leave the logos alone; stop putting playoff logos on caps & batting helmets; stay off my lawn; etc etc.
The old ebay logo felt like a flea market logo – which in spirit – is ebay. Hoping to find someone to unload your junk.
The new ebay logo feels more like Macy’s.
Many NFL Players move on from the game to play golf. Now, Clemson Equipment Managers have come up with a solution to help the transition to retirement a little easier…
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re: Thunder alt jerseys
Owen Good is a writer for Kotaku(respected video game blog)
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The Thunder really should have some how had a Supersonics theme to honor their history. KD actually played for Seattle.
might be a little awkward once Seattle gets a team back in the next few years
Carroll University in Waukesha, Wis. (NCAA Division III) also uses the wishbone C.
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Scroll down to 1962 link.
I’ll be at Sheep Station on the 3rd.
Running clothes usually look pretty ridiculous when they’re out of context, so y’all have to promise not to make fun of me.
I assume you’ll be running the ’Thon in a baseball uniform, complete with stirrups, so you should fit right in at Sheep Station.
Good point. Though I might have to compromise on wearing spikes on Sunday.
When did uni-watch start allowing pop-up ads?
Late last week. It’s an experiment, much like the “Click here to continue” thing was an experiment.
Two things:
1) They should all be pop-unders (which I realize some people find just as annoying as pop-ups, although I don’t mind them so much myself).
2) You should only see them once per day (unless you switch to another computer).
If you hate it, my apologies. Like I said, it’s an experiment. We may stick with it, or we may not.
In IE on a PC, I’m getting the pop-under every time I come back to UW during the day, not just the one time. And this morning, it was definitely popping over, not under – IE’s internal pop-up blocker actually caught it and prevented it the first time. (And then told me it had done so, because Microsoft products are emotionally needy brats who require constant pats on the back from the user.) A few hours later, just now, the ad popped under, and wasn’t blocked.
Duly noted. Am informing our ad vendor rep.
The pop-over thing definitely happened the first time, but the getting it multiple times thing may be user error. I can’t be 100% sure that my browser wasn’t closed and reopened between early am and midday. And since midday, I haven’t seen the pop-under again.
RIP, Alex Karas.
I think it was he who, upon looking down the Oakland Raiders roster during a MNF telecast, said, “Otis Sistrunk, from the University of None.”
Also ran about the funniest golf tournament you could image..bi-planes buzzing the golfers, mariachi bands playing in the middle of players’ backswing…just a hoot.
One of the game’s truly great characters. In a good way.
I think it was actually the University of Mars, since obviously Sistruck didn’t go to college prior to going pro.
That’s what I’m trying to remember.
It would have said “None” under “college” on the roster, and that was the joke there. I remember hearing it live, and thinking it was a funny line.
So I’m wondering if maybe it was Don Meredith who said “university of none” and then Karas later used “university of Mars” relative to Sistrunk.
Nice tidbit there Ricko. During Karras’s tenure on MNF (74-76?)I saw something that made it look like he worked with Gifford and Cosell. Meredith left after ’73 and came back in ’77. But it sure sounds like something that Dandy Don would say. I used to absolutely look forward to Cosell’s halftime highlights each Monday night from the previous day’s games. Oh, that and the one on Sunday mornings with Brookshire and Summerall. This Week in Pro Football. If heaven exists, I hope my cloud includes that one looped over my billboard television. I’m assuming that TV’s will be much bigger by the time I check out.
Alex was a family friend. I had the pleasure of watching the Super Bowl with him earlier this year. A real sweetheart of a man who will be greatly missed.
This clip of him has some great old uni images, including Cincinnati with the “Bengals” helmet. And wow, that blue 3/4 sleeve jersey with the Northwestern
stripes is GORGEOUS.
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RIP, Alex.
A nice of Karas and that uni…
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Wanted update yesterday’s mini-discussion on the Canadiens-Penguins game from very early in the 1975-76 season at Pittsburgh where the Habs wore red and the Pens wore light blue at home.
After a little research at the PA State Library in Harrisburg, here’s how the first few games at the Igloo shook down as to who wore what:
10/11/75: Washington wore white, Penguins wore blue.
10/18/75: Detroit wore red, Penguins wore blue.
10/21/75: Montreal wore red, Penguins wore blue.
10/25/75: Philadelphia wore orange, Penguins wore white.
11/5/75: NY Islanders wore blue, Penguins wore white.
Conclusion: likely reason Caps wore white was that the teams both opened the season in Landover, so the Caps were aware of the Pens’ lack of whites, and so the Caps wore white.
As for the Red Wings and Canadiens? The Pens probably felt that with them both wearing red for their away jerseys, no need to inform them.
So by the time the Flyers came to town, the shipment of the new white jerseys arrived in time for the Pens to wear them. It was also noted that new balcony seating was ready for the Flyers game.
Hope this helps.
Could the Habs and Wings been on road trips where they didn’t want to carry more than one set of jerseys?
Thanks for digging that up.
On the subject of alternate uniforms, I saw this reference to a possible Knicks alternate uni:
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If true, it would be pretty revolutionary for the Knicks.
I’ll have more on this tomorrow.
Now I’m nearly positive they are the Knicks’ Winter League jerseys. Both the Bulls and Lakers’ “Christmas Day” jerseys match up with their Winter League jerseys, so I’d say it’s logical to assume the Knicks’ do, too. (Post is updated)
In the autographed jersey patches, why does Buster Posey’s have his name? Giants don’t wear names on home jerseys. They got Yankees ones right.
My favorite response so far to the wishbone-C article:
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Nice, very fitting!
Yeah, that image always makes the rounds on Facebook whenever a Bear-Packer game is upcoming. Since I live in Southeast WI (Kenosha, to be specific) I know lots of fans of both, so the banter going back and forth is pretty fun. In fact, I’m a Pack fan and my wife and her family are big Bears fans. (My father-in-law played with the Bears Band at Solider Field back in the mid-late 80’s and early 90’s.)
The thing is, the asymmetry of the Bears wishbone makes it distinctly not resemble a toilet seat. (Man, imagine having to sit on a toilet seat whose opening was as far off-center as the Bears logo!) Maybe that’s why the Bears designed their C with an offcenter gap?
I have a real thing about symmetry that I try to overcome because it’s just not true that symmetrical is necessarily superior to asymmetrical, but even for me, the real Bears logo is just better than the symmetrical version.
It was mentioned above, but the story I have always heard was that the Wishbone C came from Carroll University in Wisconsin. Carroll UNiversity was founded in 1846. The Bears practiced on the school’s field in the mid 1940’s. There’s an old story of a family touring the school, when the father saw the Bear’s practicing on the school’s field.
The rumor goes that the Bears payed the school $200 dollars for the logo, however, it’s never been verified. In the end, there is at least a strong and old connection between the Bears and Carroll University.
It’s probably because I live in Wisconsin, and have heard this story a lot, but I was very surprised that this story was not included in the ESPN article about the Wishbone C. Mostly because Carroll University has claimed that they were the originators of the Wishbone C.
No, the story here in Chicago is that the Bears began to use the wishbone C after getting permission from the University of Chicago to use it (as U of C didn’t restart their football program until the 70s). It also dovetails nicely with the fact that the Bears tweaked it to an orange C trimmed in white soon after U of C revived the football program.
Bears wishbone C – No, I don’t think the symmetrical one looks better. Looks like it has an overbite. Underbites at least have that strong chin thing going. I wonder if the original designer had something like this in mind when putting it together…
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Possible leak of the new Maryland Basketball uniforms:
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Found this while working on a project (it has nothing to do with schools, but you have to love the interwebs).
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Don’t know much more about it, but I hope to hell it is a “charity-type” donation and not a naming/sponsorship plea.
Possible NBA Christmas Uni’s?
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only ones that are legible are the Heat(F them, signed bitter Cavs fan), Denver, Lakers, Brooklyn and Boston.. the rest are really hard to read
This Oregon State men’s soccer uni is pretty awesome (in photo).
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Excellent timing on the ESPN piece Paul! My girlfriend was just asking me about this yesterday while watching the Reds-Giants game. Knowing that unis/logos are sort of my wheelhouse she inquired why the Reds logo and the Bears logo are the same. I’ve already emailed her the story. Incidentally, I prefer the asymmetrical Bears logo. It’s unique to the point of copyright ala the Clemson Tigers paw logo. BTW, I’ve never seen a pop-up or popunder ad here. Using Windows7 with IE.