This real money site caters to all players, with reviews on mobile games you can play, including slots, blackjack, and roulette.

Design of the Times

design-is-a-behaviour.jpg

By now I’m sure most of you have seen Phil’s recent Saturday post in which he invited readers to help create a baseball uni design for a Tennessee high school. What you probably haven’t seen, however, is a comment that reader Scott Misner posted very late that night (I didn’t see it myself until Monday). It goes like this:

Hey, just want to throw out a notion here about these design-a-uni contests. It’s all fun and games to pull this kind of thing together. But people get paid thousands of dollars to do logo design and/or uniform design.

Okay, so those designers at Nike, Reebok, and the NBA often show their limited skill sets. But doing spec contest work for “goodies” devalues the design profession.

Sure, a bunch [of readers] are going to submit their designs — caring less [about] whether they get any real return value. That’s cool. Your choice. But realize it devalues the profession. And the next time a business “doesn’t get it” when you work to articulate the value of graphic design, realize you perpetuated that lack of appreciation for an art form.

Lastly, I hope you allocate that same amount of resources to your local Boys & Girls Club, YWCA, or other nonprofit programs with this type of need.

I assume Scott is a professional designer, although I don’t know that for sure (he didn’t write back when I e-mailed him to ask for some background context). In any case, his comment raises some very interesting questions. What does “devaluing” mean, especially in the age of Wal-Mart and the internet? If something can be easily devalued, does that mean it was overvalued? Is there anything wrong with doing creative work on spec? What is a fair price for design (or for any skilled work)?

I confess that I approach these questions with a certain bias, which I’ll explain like so: From 1987-1993, I edited graphic design books, and I often had to read design magazines as part of my job. Desktop publishing software was just coming into vogue at the time, and the design mags were full of articles that basically said, “These laypeople, they have no idea how typefaces work!” and “We can’t let just anyone design a pamphlet — they don’t know what they’re doing!”

Of course, many people using early desktop publishing programs didn’t know what they were doing. But it was pretty obvious that the people writing those design articles 20 years ago weren’t concerned about preserving the state of typography, or whatever — they were concerned about laypeople (that’s really the term they used) suddenly having access to the tools of the design trade. Their exclusive club was about to get a lot less exclusive. Aside from the economic implications of this, many designers at the time were clearly offended by the prospect of the rabble being able to choose their own fonts.

Over the subsequent years, I’ve noticed that designers frequently fall back on this sense of self-importance. (As an example, check out this book review I wrote in 2002.) And while I could be wrong, I sense a similar whiff of elitism coming from Scott’s post. He’s basically saying, “Don’t try this at home — leave it to the professionals.” That’s a good argument when you’re referring to, say, medicine or law. But there are good reasons not to let laypeople practice those professions — that’s why you need a license to engage in them. Maybe Scott thinks designers should have to be licensed too.

Personally, though, I disagree. I think good things often happen when beginners and enthusiastic amateurs mess around with the ideas in their heads — that’s how we got zines, punk rock, outsider art, etc. And if they choose to give those ideas away at below market rate, it doesn’t mean they’re not “get[ting] any real return value” from their work — sometimes value comes from a sense of fun, satisfaction, and accomplishment, and that’s every bit as valid as the value in a $3,000 fee.

Fact is, computers and the internet have changed the rules for creative professionals. Blogs let anyone be a published writer, YouTube lets anyone be a filmmaker, and, yes, design software lets anyone be a designer. But if someone starts a blog about uni design, does that “devalue” my work? Personally, I just see it as competition, which is something no professional should resent or be afraid of — it’s part of the creative environment. Now, granted, my work is available for free, so there’s no way for a blogger to undercut me in terms of price (at least not until I put this site behind a pay wall, which is something I hope I never have to do). But I’d like to think that my work is good enough to hold its own in the marketplace. And if it’s not, well, tough shit on me. My career isn’t an entitlement, and neither is any designer’s.

Scott’s most intriguing point comes toward the end: “[T]he next time a business ‘doesn’t get it’ when you work to articulate the value of graphic design, realize you perpetuated that lack of appreciation for an art form.” Again, this sounds fairly elitist (and note how he’s now elevated design from “profession” to “art form”), but Scott’s implicit point — i.e., giving away the store for free ultimately contributes to design illiteracy — rings true. It’s similar to my obsession with the apostrophe catastrophe, a punctuation problem rooted in “laypeople’s” use of word-processing software. In short: If you don’t have professional gatekeepers upholding some level of standards, those standards will go down the crapper.

I could go on, but I’ve rambled enough here. What do you think about these issue? Discuss. And Scott, if you’re reading this, thanks for raising these issues — excellent food for thought.

rafflet ticket by ben thoma.jpg

November Raffle: A guy named Jeremy Yingling recently started a design operation called Infojocks, which comes up with interesting graphic approaches to sports statistics. He’s recently begun selling three new posters, and I have one of each to raffle off. First-place winner will get his or her choice from the three poster designs; second person gets choice of the remaining two; third person gets the third poster.

To enter, send a blank e-mail with your name in the subject line to the NEW raffle address (note that this isn’t the old raffle address or the regular Uni Watch e-mail address) by 10pm next Monday, November 9th. One entry per person, but anyone enrolled in the Uni Watch membership program at the time of the drawing can send four entries. I’ll announce the winners next Tuesday.

Screen shot 2009-11-03 at 5.34.52 PM.png

iPod? What’s an iPod?: I’ve put one last batch of vintage indie singles up on eBay. Coming soon: a few select LPs. Stay tuned.

Uni Watch News Ticker: Mark Messier wore an Edmonton Oil Kings jacket to the World Series. Plus he appears to have become a conehead (with thanks to Chris Gundry). … I think we’ve seen some of these before, but check out these great ski jumps erected in stadiums (with thanks to Ben Traxel). … Interesting logo query from Susan Freeman, who writes: “A recent issue of SI had a photo of Jonathan Toews that showed him sitting at his locker. The Blackhawks lockers have a black-and-white rendition of Tommy Hawk, and the B&W logo really makes the facial features stand out, to a point where the war paint looks like letters. Is this a hidden signature from when the logo was redesigned in 1964? Or does it somehow say Tommy Hawk?” I’d never heard this interpretation before. Anyone..? … Yesterday I linked to this varsity jacket operation. Now the man who told me about that company, Steven Tatar, has provided a bunch of photos of the factory itself — great stuff. … Lots of great old Idaho/BSU rivalry photos in this slideshow (with thanks to Chris Salove). … When the System of Dress was introduced a few years back, remember how the Nike models were shown wearing striped and patterned undersleeves? Ohio State’s David Lighty appeared to be wearing one of those undershirts at a recent practice (good spot by Nick Houser). … Chad Cate notes that Marshall has a running back named Darius Marshall, which creates an unusual SNOB situation. … What’s that tat? Look! Lots of additional pics here. … Seattle forward Nate Jaqua had to wear a plain blood jersey after being kicked in the head and subsequently bleeding on his jersey a few nights ago (with thanks to Matt Beaudin). … Next time anyone says I complain too much about corporate sponsorships, I’m just gonna point them here (with thanks to Brinke Guthrie, who no doubt will miss Texas Stadium — that’s him in November of 1971, shortly after the place opened). … Georgia Tech usually wears white at home — but maybe not this Saturday. … Dozens of great 1940s Washington Huskies photos here (big thanks to Phil Amaya). … Here’s the Babe in a different kind of uniform (great find by Alyssa Miller).

 

263 comments to Design of the Times

  • DJ | November 4, 2009 at 8:01 am |

    The Blackhawks lockers have a black-and-white rendition of Tommy Hawk, and the B&W logo really makes the facial features stand out, to a point where the war paint looks like letters. Is this a hidden signature from when the logo was redesigned in 1964? Or does it somehow say Tommy Hawk?”

    That is NOT Tommy Hawk. That is Chief Black Hawk.

    This is Tommy Hawk:

    http://blackhawks.nh...

  • Rick | November 4, 2009 at 8:08 am |

    Totally agree with you on this, Paul. To stay in the World Series spirit: I don’t think the Phillies and Yanks don’t mind a bit if people dial up their machines at the batting cages to 95mph and try to hit. If anything, it just shows how to do things professionally and make them look easy and natural.

    Professional designers should welcome the opportunity ‘laymen’ have to gain an appreciation for good design by trying to do it themselves.

    The premise of Scott is elitist. Design is all about aesthetics, and anyone can get it right at one point. A professional designer, however, shows consistently that they have a feel for it, their designs aren’t supposed to be the accidental Andy Pettite RBIs, the Chase Utley home runs.

    If anything… learning how hard a good design is to create should grow appreciation of good designers. However… if design appears to be very easy, it could bust the pro’s large paycheck bubble. Jeter wouldn’t be making the amount he is if they could just send me or you out there and get a hit 30% of the time, either.

  • Rick | November 4, 2009 at 8:09 am |

    okay messed up the language a bit in @2, but you get the point… just hope I got the apostrophes right :).

  • The Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 8:17 am |

    I’d have to agree that Scott sounds like a scared elitist. Art can come from many sources and skill sets. I’d almost say the entire idea of a “trained” designer is kinda silly. You can teach someone how to use photoshop. You can teach various art styles. But there is no such thing as “proper design”. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say.

    Graphic design is overvalued. A couple years ago the company I work for paid a rather large amount of money to some consulting firm and design group to come up with a new logo. The end result – a switch from a custom, relatively unique font to a lowercase helvetica rip-off. I’m sure it was totally worth that much money.

  • dgc | November 4, 2009 at 8:25 am |

    I remember a few of those designs from the “Design the Nationals’ unis” ESPN contest being a lot more interesting than what Bud and company came up with. I think there are some pros submitting stuff to those Icethetics contests, but they’re turning out some quality concepts as well.

  • Austin | November 4, 2009 at 8:31 am |

    I am a designer, and I have dreamed of the chance to design logos and uniforms for teams. I’ve been doing so since I was sitting in my basement at age 8, creating uniforms for every sport with crayons and markers. In my spare time, I still design a fair number of baseball and soccer uniforms. My uniform obsession laid the groundwork for my passion for graphic design, and I’m thankful to be doing a job that I love. Even as a professional graphic designer, I don’t get the chance to make uniforms and logos, and I probably never will…at least on a professional level. It’s quite exciting, then, when an opportunity like the one afforded by Clarksville High School comes along. Incidentally, I live down the interstate from Clarksville, and if they’d come to me and said they wanted some uniform work, I probably would have done it for free anyway. Does that “devalue” good design as well? I really couldn’t care less, for money is not the ultimate reason why I do graphic design of any kind, let alone uniform/sports logo design.

    As a design professional, I do get disappointed and disgusted when I see excessive drop shadows, feathered edges, papyrus, comic sans, mesquite, and any number of other (very prevalent) examples of terrible design. But my disgust is as much with the public’s lack of understanding that these things are tacky as it is with the designer (professional or amateur) that put it designed it. Is the public ever going to be educated simply by charging the going rate for design? I’m not convinced. I believe that a client that pays me for design is likely going to get a better result than asking a lesser designer to do something for free, but ultimately, it’s up to me to make that so. If the client can’t see the difference between the two options, no price tag is going to change that. It’s on me to make sure the difference is obvious.

  • Robert Eden (formerly Robert in Dallas) | November 4, 2009 at 8:38 am |

    Write-Your-Own-Will and other legal software are available to laymen these days. That’s the same kind of devaluation to which the Glorious Leader is referring, right? If amateurs can do as good a job as the professionals, so be it.

  • Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 8:43 am |

    Dig them uniforms!

    http://kids.woot.com...

  • John Ekdahl | November 4, 2009 at 8:43 am |

    Are professionals born as professionals or do they start as amateurs?

  • Jeff E. | November 4, 2009 at 8:46 am |

    So, if my buddies and I play football in the backyard, are we devaluing the NFL?

  • The Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 8:48 am |

    [quote comment=”357991″]Dig them uniforms!

    http://kids.woot.com...

    Why the hell did they use an offensive lineman for the Raiders and not McFadden or Fargas? I know we’re horrible, but damn.

    I’d almost buy one, but I don’t think it’d look very good next to the McFarlane figures I’ve got.

  • TC Lofton | November 4, 2009 at 8:51 am |

    Is it possible that UniWatch has been trolled? Someone would have to have their head stuck pretty far up their own rectum to say something like that seriously. We’d better not comment, since we’re not paid blog-posters… it’s devaluing the “Troll from home and make $500 an hour!” market.

    That’s a really interesting note about Chief Blackhawk. I used to try and make the “T” in my signature look like the forehead mark when I was in Junior High.

  • Kyle | November 4, 2009 at 8:56 am |

    I agree with Austin. There are quite a few of us “professional” designers that read this site. Most of us do so because while we get paid to design, sports design is hallowed ground. I spend all day on my Mac designing high end office furniture marketing materials. And while that pays the bills, I dream of designing uni’s for teams of all levels. I’ve designed logos for my alma mater’s soccer team, girls bball team, and youth soccer programs. All for free. Seeing them on the field, and possibly getting a shirt or something to show for it is payment enough.

    So Scott, you are not the only “pro” out there. And if our work is so much better, it should stand out above the rest. And if you don’t want to participate… that’s fine. But lets be honest, some great designs have come from the hands of people who have just as good of a design eye as you and I, and just chose to feed their family in another line of work. Be glad they have these kind of opportunities to flex their design muscle. We have a fun job. Appreciate that others think so too.

  • Dennis Rodman | November 4, 2009 at 8:57 am |

    Pitt Football Coach Dave W. said he is working to get the throwback blue and yellow script Pitt unifroms vs. Notre Dame.
    He said someone else proposed Pitt and WVU to wear throwback unis to promote the Backyard Brawl.
    Coach W. said he is going to make a call after his interview on WDVE to see if they are going to wear their throwback uniforms.

  • mulligan | November 4, 2009 at 8:58 am |

    My wife keep this quote in mind when she deals with overbearing parents at her school.

    “When a parent shows up with an attitude of entitlement, understand that under it is a boatload of anxiety.”

    It seems to apply here.

  • Jeff E. | November 4, 2009 at 9:02 am |

    [quote comment=”357991″]Dig them uniforms!

    http://kids.woot.com...

    LMAO on the “hair” for Houshmandzadeh.

  • Original Jim | November 4, 2009 at 9:03 am |

    Devaluing the profession is a tough issue. I am a designer. I have a Bachelor’s Degree in Graphic Design, I have over 15 years professional experience, plus I am always training myself on updated software, and reading thoughts and processes on others in the field.

    I do think that many design contests and sites like “logo for $100” etc. are an insult to those who do this for a living.

    Change the profession. What if you had a contest to design a home, or install electrical wiring? Wouldn’t architects and contractors say that you’re undercutting their expertise and industry?

    It’s hard to take a stand without sounding elitist. It is hard to put a price on work done in a field that values form over function. And if you can find a quicker solution to your problem without costing a lot, so be it. But remember…the quickest and cheapest solution is not always the best one.

  • The Big Ego | November 4, 2009 at 9:04 am |

    Can some one pleas explain to me why TACO BELL would be the logical choice to sponser the implosion of Texas Stadium? Is it b/c the road kill they serve will make your insides implode?

    And how is a tatoo uni related? For keeping in the spirit of the board and all…

  • nateisfunny | November 4, 2009 at 9:05 am |

    I think what Scott might be referring to is the “chilling effect” that might occur from ball clubs not employing design firms to do this work. If design firms going out of business, innovation will be cooled, so the argument goes.

    It isn’t a point without merit, but I think everyone on a site like this, or anyone with at least a little understanding of the potential of the internet, sees that innovation is anything but cooled by these kind of contests. We aren’t kids with coloring books, we are people, with opinions, who now get a forum to express them constructively. This is a good thing.

  • brad keppler | November 4, 2009 at 9:12 am |

    As a professional designer, i see both sides of this topic. However, i do not have a problem with “outsourcing” small jobs like these to the public. It gives small up and coming designers a great chance to get their stuff out there and be seen. I took advantage of opportunities like these while I was still in college and fresh out. as long as neither party gets in over their head i really dont see a problem.

    might as well get a cheap plug while im here
    http://www.thirty3gr...

    i had to do it

  • TC Lofton | November 4, 2009 at 9:12 am |

    By the way, Paul and gang, thanks for getting the Twitter feed hopping. I was happy to see a post leading me here this morning.

  • Don | November 4, 2009 at 9:12 am |

    Paul,

    I think you missed the point of Scott’s email. He is not arguing for “laypeople” not to participate in a design contest. He is arguing against giving away your work for free.

    From a designer’s view this is like arguing against shipping a manufacturing job oversees. Say the manufacturing job in America is $50k a year and the same job oversees is $5k a year. You’ve basically just said the work that I do is not worth $50k and I’ve lost my job/income. Likewise you are saying the worker overseas is only worth $5k, which severely undervalues the work they do and doesn’t provide much in terms of living wage.

    Now one thing I will say before I go further is, if I remember correctly, this is a contest for a high school, or some not-for-profit team. In which case, an open contest sounds cool to me. Also, I love seeing all the DIY work and uni mockups on this site. Obviously a lot of people do those because they are super fun and that is reward enough. You only hope to share your work and hang out with a community of people who you think didn\’t exist prior to this site existing and that is totally badass.

    But, doing work for a contest in which the end owner of the designs either pays you nothing or just a few thousand dollars DOES devalue the work of what professional designers do. For example. If I am sports team owner A and I see that team owner B is getting his logo work done for 10k, I want my work done for 10k or less as well. Thats the market price. But if I see team owner B getting that same work done for 1k or nothing at all, then thats where the market starts to set. The perception becomes, “Good work does not cost much. Design is cheap.” When of course thats not the case. Work costs something.

    One last thing. This site, and I would say Paul in particular, have created a culture where an emphasis has been placed on “Quality”. Quality in this case meaning, excellent craftsmanship, substantial materials, and generally uniforms from a bygone era. Those qualities cost more money. Many people here are doing quality work. Giving it away does your work and other quality work a disservice.

  • Chris M | November 4, 2009 at 9:16 am |

    As a professional Web Developer, it pains me when a company decides to go with the boss’ son/daughter whose portfolio consists of a few MySpace themes rather than a professional because it saves them money.

    While it is lost business for me, I know they won’t have a professional looking or well coded site. An amateur just doesn’t know the difference, and 90% of the time, neither does the decision maker. But does that knowledge pay the bills? No.

    So does it “devalue” the business. Sure, in the fact that I lost out on money because a client didn’t care about quality.

    Then again, you’ve got to start somewhere…

  • Tom V | November 4, 2009 at 9:19 am |

    Paul, as an architect I do not take any offense to someone coming to me with a building design and asking me to finish the job with drawings, specs, administration, etc. Would our fee be a bit lower? Yes, it should be for not having to do a design.

    Same with mr graphic designer. If someone has a amateur contest for uniform logo design, do you think its going to be uniform ready when they reveal the winner? Probably not, theres still actual colors to be picked, tweaking the design, drawings, specs, etc to be done. The contest has simply cut out some schematic design for the graphic designer. They should charge less as well for some of the work already having been done too.

  • Bob | November 4, 2009 at 9:21 am |

    Actually, it sounds like Scott’s an insecure jerk. It sounds like the same garbage that the mainstream media spouts to discredit bloggers.

  • Marty | November 4, 2009 at 9:21 am |

    I think Scott may be missing the boat in terms of design collaboration. Blogs like http://www.theclinkr... and http://www.icethetic... regularly solicit designs from their readers, who are clearly a mix of both professionals and amateurs, and then allow criticism of the designs to be decided upon their readers (who, being made of amateur AND professional designers, are quite accurate). http://boards.sports... is a forum used by both professionals and designers to display and get criticism for logo concepts, many of which are not done for a paycheck, but simply for fun! By attacking the amateur designers Scott is just ignoring an opportunity for collaboration and expansion of the field of design.

  • KimK | November 4, 2009 at 9:25 am |

    So some High School is opening up their baseball uniform design process to an internet blog and apparently uniform designers around the world are going hungry?

    Is Mr. Misner aware that a vast majority of High School uniform decisions are made by the athletic director, a catalog and a supplier? With the major design decisions being the inclusion of school colors and cost?

    Or that the rest of the high schools open up such thing to coaches and their students/players?

    How is this taking food out of designers mouths. It’s not like the a big pro league or mid-level colleges (where people get paid for such things) are doing this.

  • KimK | November 4, 2009 at 9:27 am |

    [quote comment=”357993″]So, if my buddies and I play football in the backyard, are we devaluing the NFL?[/quote]

    Actually, there’s a better argument that the NFL devalues your backyard game.

    You may want to look into class action litigation to ‘revalue’ the backyard game.

  • Paul Lukas | November 4, 2009 at 9:27 am |

    [quote comment=”358008″]Actually, it sounds like Scott’s an insecure jerk. It sounds like the same garbage that the mainstream media spouts to discredit bloggers.[/quote]

    Easy there — Scott (who just sent me a note without even realizing he was the star of today’s show) is no jerk. He’s raised some really good issues, and we should be able to discuss them in a civil manner.

    Thanks.

  • skott daltonic | November 4, 2009 at 9:28 am |

    that dude’s email was fairly hilarious.

    people w/ skill and talent and passion for something shouldn’t do it because they might what, take away your job or make your job less valuable?

    please.

    i can drive fast, does that make Jeff Gordon worried?
    i can play guitar well, does that freak out Gregg Ginn or Brian Baker?
    i have a boat, does that mean when they race in the America’s Cup they feel less rich?

  • JohnnyO | November 4, 2009 at 9:28 am |

    Tom Meindel, the man who designed the ball-in-glove logo, was a student at the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire when he designed that amazing logo. Tom was an Art History major at the time of the design contest, so I highly doubt he was a professional at this time. Tom did win $2,000 for winning the competition. But think, if this contest was only opened to “professionals”, we would have never been exposed to the awesomeness of the ball-in-glove logo that has been a key part in Brewers history since 1978.

  • skott daltonic | November 4, 2009 at 9:29 am |

    ps. that girl’s tattoo is incredible.

  • Elena | November 4, 2009 at 9:30 am |

    “Over the subsequent years, I’ve noticed that designers frequently fall back on this sense of self-importance”–you’ve got that right, Paul. A contest for a high school logo is hardly putting all graphic designers out of work. I’ve entered non-profit design contests. If they could afford a highfalutin professional, they would have done so. Get over yourself, Scott. There’s room for both of us.

  • CMONEY | November 4, 2009 at 9:31 am |

    The way I see it, the market sets the value of designers. Maybe I sound like Fox news or something, but I don’t think it is up to the designer to define the value of graphic design. Each individual can set whatever price she wants, but the free market determines the value.

  • M.Princip | November 4, 2009 at 9:38 am |

    I see what Scott’s saying, to a point. If you really want to know what devalues the graphic design profession, just go on ebay and keyword logo design. These designers are basically knockin’ out (for the most part)crappy logos at 70 bucks a pop.

    To get paid well in graphic design you first need to get a contract established, where upon both parties know what they are going to get in the end. Design company get’s paid, and client get’s the final logo/branding etc. after many iterations of the logo, brain storming sessions, so on and so forth. The big dollars, in this profession, is not just paid for the end result logo. It’s paid for the endless hours in conceptualizing the logo and getting to know your client for the best end result.

    I have no real idea what the Clarksville Wildcats are about, their history, what they’re really looking for. Just know the basics. So, I think it would be fun to simply put something together, off the top of my head, and submit an entry for the contest.

  • Jake | November 4, 2009 at 9:38 am |

    Wow, I haven’t posted in a long time —

    Good post, Paul. I agree with you 100%. Some of the most creative uniform ideas I’ve seen have been spawned in just the type of idea that was posted on this site.

    Just because someone makes a career out of a profession, in this case a designer, doesn’t mean others should not be able to dabble (except, of course, in “licensed” professions whereby “dabblers” can get into a considerable amount of trouble).

    Take, for example, the Adult Softball League. Chances are VERY high that 99% of these teams do not employ a designer to design a uniform that probably consists only of a shirt, and maybe a hat. I play Adult softball, and love designing the uniform. It’s nothing fancy and nothing great, but I don’t see how it discredits an entire profession.

    Also, keep in mind that this contest is for a high school team. I personally know that my high school did NOT have a designer come up with concepts for uniforms — we were a rural, relatively poor high school that had simple uniforms that the athletic director thought of and approved. While I can’t be certain, I’d bet many high schools across the country are in a similar situation.

    One last thing — I have all the respect in the world for every profession. It is not my business to tell people how to act and/or perform their jobs, etc…. But, as this is a site devoted to the aesthetics of sports and uniforms, I have one final comment:

    We spend alot of time debating the merits of this uniform vs. that uniform. It is clearly evident in these discussions that many designers have MISSED THE MARK when designing professional uniforms (think Bobcats, Jaguars, Bengals, Cardinals, PURPLE). Are they bad designs? Depends on who you ask, I suppose. But everyone seems to agree that some are indeed not great uniform designs. Everyone has an opinion as to how they can be better, and if someone, even an amateur, can make the Bobcats or the Bengals look better, whose to say we shouldn’t use it?

  • Tom V | November 4, 2009 at 9:38 am |

    [quote comment=”358000″]Change the profession. What if you had a contest to design a home, or install electrical wiring? Wouldn’t architects and contractors say that you’re undercutting their expertise and industry?[/quote]

    This is a hard one to compare as architects, engineers and contractors do have to be licensed.

    Now, a contest to design a home? Thats fine. What we do isn’t brain surgery or rocket science. Now, will someone have to make sure your building is up to code, permits, architectural drawings, etc? Yes.

    It’s nothing different than a client coming to us and saying here’s reasonably what I want my house to look like. How does that devalue my profession?

    Same as a team coming to a graphic designer and saying our initial is “s”, we’re the warriors, heres our logo and our colors are red black and white. How does that devalue the work of a graphic designer?

  • Tom V | November 4, 2009 at 9:41 am |

    And BTW Paul, thanks for making my day totally unproductive with this most interesting topic.

  • chance michaels | November 4, 2009 at 9:43 am |

    [quote comment=”358014″]Tom Meindel, the man who designed the ball-in-glove logo, was a student at the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire when he designed that amazing logo. Tom was an Art History major at the time of the design contest, so I highly doubt he was a professional at this time. Tom did win $2,000 for winning the competition. But think, if this contest was only opened to “professionals”, we would have never been exposed to the awesomeness of the ball-in-glove logo that has been a key part in Brewers history since 1978.[/quote]
    True enough, but note that Tom did get paid. Pretty well, in fact, for 1978.

    Which was, I think, Scott’s point. “Amateurs” (for want of a better term for people who earn their bread elsewhere) doing the work doesn’t devalue it, but people giving away their work for free does.

    This isn’t as much a problem with high schools and non-profits, but it is when professional teams, universities or other entities which could and should pay for design work hold contests. Open the contest up to amateurs and pros, sure, but pay the winner what you would pay a design firm. Then the contest becomes about soliciting ideas from everywhere instead of just trying to score some cheap labor.

  • interlockingtc | November 4, 2009 at 9:45 am |

    Corporate sponsorship of a stadium implosion?

    *sigh*

    I give up.

  • tg | November 4, 2009 at 9:45 am |

    What is good design? Good design is developing a solution to solve a problem. Define the problem. A high school sports team needs a uniform and logo that lets them look unified and stand out from the competition. A uniform that defines their intensity and passion for their sport. This is the start, the basis, the foundation for any approach in designing something, anything. That initial thought and start of the creative process is often missing with non-professional designers. Yes, there are cases where someone gets it right, but in most cases I could point out any number of holes in amateur designer solutions. So I say, bring on your crappy designs and illustrations and i’ll sit back, grin, and ponder what next? Some amateur know-it-all’s going to develop a terribly in-efficient voting ballot that leaves hanging chads? Nah, nobody would be that stupid. Leave it to the big boys or prepare to be mundane.

  • Lwiedy | November 4, 2009 at 9:51 am |

    Don’t know if this has made UW yet, if not, it would certain mark a significant point in the evolution of the batting helmet:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/...
    This seller has a thousand or so wire photos that are well worth a look.

  • Daniel | November 4, 2009 at 9:53 am |

    What percentage of the graphic design market is uniforms and sports logos? .1%? If a graphic designer is only focusing on those two: well good luck.

  • Tom V | November 4, 2009 at 9:53 am |

    [quote comment=”358024″]but in most cases I could point out any number of holes in amateur designer solutions.[/quote]

    Yeah, and thats where the graphic designer comes in and makes the holey design a sound one. Whats the problem with that? How does someone starting off with a concept logo devalue what you do?

    How many times has a client come to you, said we need a logo, color scheme, uniform design. We don’t know any colors we want, we don’t know what the team name will be or what our mascot looks like, we don’t even know what sport the team will play. We just want a design, whats your fee?

    I mean, REALLY?

  • Chris | November 4, 2009 at 9:54 am |

    Never forget that “professionals” designed these monstrosities

  • TC Lofton | November 4, 2009 at 9:56 am |

    Paul, thanks for stepping in… can I take back my earlier comment?

    I’m really all for the idea of the Creative Commons… especially working at a University where our best work often comes from kids who are just learning about design/graphics. But I do realize that designers can be taken for granted. I mean, it took decades for Siegel & Shuster to get paid for Superman…

  • Seth H | November 4, 2009 at 9:56 am |

    I think the answer for Scott is self-evident here.

    He should submit a “professional” job to the high school. He should tell them that he is submitting it for their review, but that he still owns the work. He should offer to sell them the rights for whatever “value” he puts on his work.

    If, in the school’s opinion, his work is superior to the “free” designs, then the school will gladly pay the “value.” If it is not, then either he “values” his work too highly, or it just might be the case that there are different markets for different work.

    When my kids were young, we built a gas pump out of a box, a piece of string, and a funnel. This does not mean that we “devalued” the $50 plastic gas pumps you could by from Toys R Us. It just means that for our purposes, there was no need to pay that price for that product. The “layperson” model was all we needed. Maybe the town preschool needed the $50 plastic one.

  • Ry Co 40 | November 4, 2009 at 9:59 am |

    a) don’t lose sight of the fact that this was a case of a high school team, phil, and uniwatch having a fun contest.

    and

    b) after reading all the comments to this point, i just wanted to give credit to Tom V. it seems he has the best thoughts on the subject.

    great post today paul, thanks for sharing!

  • KilroyFSU | November 4, 2009 at 10:05 am |

    Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist!

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 10:06 am |

    High school team or not, it shouldn’t exempt them from the same copyrights & other legalities that designers must follow.

  • leon | November 4, 2009 at 10:06 am |

    Swoosh = $35

  • Paul Lukas | November 4, 2009 at 10:08 am |

    [quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    And whoever said I wasn’t? (Hint: Not me.) Remember, I’m a freelancer — I make a living by producing something and selling it on the open market. In short, I’m an entrepreneur. Just because I’m not a corporate douchebag, that doesn’t mean I don’t have any sense of capitalist enterprise.

    Jeez.

  • Chris | November 4, 2009 at 10:13 am |

    Top 10 Goalie Masks by Maxim http://www.maxim.com...

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 10:15 am |

    (hey Paul : IKEA was my spam word! Are you having secret ads? :)

    in my industry, YouTube is both a blessing and a curse. I have many, many communications students who come to me for an internship and most of them do not have the skill set, nor understanding of what it is to create a high end product.

    One of the things I’ve noticed recently is the use of Final Cut Pro templates. Both by “professionals” AND students. The affordability of FCP vs. a program like AVID or the entire Adobe Creative Suite allows people to think that they are creative and true editors. It’s in the same vein of someone like Perez Hilton has access to a blog/computer and spouts his ideas vs. the genuine journalism you do as a career.

    Just because one has the tool in the box, doesn’t neccesarilly mean they know how to USE it.

    Many “make your own video” contests and design commonly infringe on taking credit for truly original compositions (both musically and cinematography). There are MANY legal aspects to television & video design, and while youtube allows certain individuals to express themselves in creative ways, I do feel as if many others are being hurt in various parodies, satires and does in the long run diminish what one has truly done professionally.

    I am under contract NOT to post or create anything via youtube or any other web source (basically, anything I do/create belongs to my company…this is a common practice), and when I go on interviews, I have to maintain that same professionalism and respect for other companies, meanwhile, when someone creates a “viral” video and garnishes undeserved attention, I feel a certain contempt for the attention they receive. Because video editing software and cameras are becoming more and more common, it fuels and makes the job market (in my area already a dime a dozen) that much more watered down. Many companies will underpay because even though one may have the true background, there is always someone that WILL undercut to get in (though they may not have the same skills, and yes, this has been going on forever), hurting those of us who have worked for 5, 10, 15+ years to get ahead, just simply because they feel they are creative and yet have no true purpose to be in this field rather to play.

    I apologize if this came off more like a rant, but I do feel I needed to chime in on this. Times are tough as you know, and when 90% of the people I am going against for a job are seriously under qualified, it actually does make it harder to stand out.

  • RS Rogers | November 4, 2009 at 10:17 am |

    I actually think Scott raises very good points about the marketplace for professional design. Good design is not just about being aesthetically pleasing; good design makes society work better. Design is the one place where Socrates’ pseudo-fascist ideas about “virtue” and art actually hold true. I’m not saying we need a priesthood of graphic designers or anything, but good design embiggens us all, and amateur contests like this really do have negative, if tiny and marginal, effects on expectations about the quality of design generally.

    That said, we’re talking about a high school, and I have long believed that it is a pedagogical crime for school administrators to use pro ripoff logos and designs. High schools should hold design contests and solicit original work from interested amateurs. It’s just that the amateurs in question should not be the worldwide internet audience; they should be the school’s own students, faculty, and alumni. It is better for everyone, including designers, if places like public schools that cannot afford to pay market rates for design work find ways to do design work on the cheap rather than not doing design at all. No revenue is lost, since such clients cannot afford to pay much of anything anyway, and interest in and awareness of the importance and challenges of design is raised among the participants. It’s all good.

    In all things, there is a role for amateurs and a role for professionals. (Or perhaps “professionals” overstates things; “vocationalists” may better describe what creative people do when acting on an interest that is closer to a calling or a passion.) In some fields, such as medicine, the appropriate role for amateurs is necessarily very small. The fewer lives are at stake, and the more a field is driven by artistic creativity, the larger the appropriate role for the amateur.

    One thing that characterizes most true professions is an understanding that the profession serves the public good and therefore a commitment to provide some professional services pro bono. If designers want to be taken seriously as professionals, then design likewise needs to adopt a professional ethic of low- or no-cost service for the public good. Which is to say, designers should be willing to do projects such as designing letterhead and athletic logos for public schools or youth leagues for free. (The same would go for libraries, nonprofits, and the like.)

    Without such an ethic of public service, design cannot be considered a profession. Rather, it would simply be a form of skilled labor, a trade. Now, I have high respect for skilled laborers — frankly, I believe that my own “profession” of journalism is a form of skilled labor and suffers greatly from delusions of being a profession. But skilled labor imposes on society no obligation to respect the barriers to entry, whereas actual professions do require some degree of respect for barriers to entry.

    I could read all the books in the law library, but I would never think it appropriate to try to represent someone in court. But if my neighbor’s car won’t start, I feel no compunction whatsoever about getting under the hood to see if I can get it running. This has nothing to do with the difficulty or importance of the task. Most legal work is not in fact particularly demanding, especially compared to engine mechanics, and in fact an auto mechanic has more lives and safety at stake in his work than do most lawyers. The difference is that one set of work is organized as a profession, while the other is a organized as a trade.

    Without an accepted code of ethics that includes public service and pro bono work, design will necessarily be a form of skilled labor, a trade that anyone may appropriately attempt as an amateur or hobbyist, rather than a profession whose boundaries the rest of us ought to accept.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 10:18 am |

    Not taking sides in this one way or another, but some random thoughts to be pondered…(many of which are analogous or metaphorical, I’ll admit)

    Having a digital camera doesn’t make someone a photographer any more than owning a $20,000 stereo system makes them Mozart. It what they do with it, the quality of the work. Ultimately that’s the real proof.

    Intellectual property does have value and, unless supplied to non-profits, really should involve remuneration of some sort.

    As someone who’s also done some radio commercial voicework along the way, it really sucks if you local market is crowded with people who will do spots for $35 each. Not only do those who have been successful as voice talents suffer, the spots in that market eventually start to sound like everything was recorded at a small town station with studios on the second floor above the Dairy Queen.

    A large number of the bloggers I’ve seen are lousy journalists. They don’t get the facts straight, don’t do research, don’t interview anyone, just rush to their keyboards to address a world they believe can’t wait to read their thoughts for the day. Much of what’s out there is Internet hackery, plain and simple.

    Many times I have said one of the great curses of advertising (where I’ve spent the lion’s share of my professional career) is that you’re forced to accept the artistic opinions of people you wouldn’t take with you to pick out a suit.

    Another is the client who believes price is always the determining factor, that the $500 logo is automatically better than the $5,000 logo. The opposite attitude, though, is just as difficult to work with…that the one with big price tag automatically is superior.

    All of this, I guess, is my way of saying it’s a confounding issue in changing environment.

    Anyone who has ever written for a living knows that “everyone thinks they’re a writer”. And they’re not.

    Also, there are two things everyone thinks they’re good at: Creativity and Sex. Generally speaking, the odds are they’re wrong on both counts.

    —Ricko

  • morgan | November 4, 2009 at 10:19 am |

    I think the real stumbling block for Scott is the word devalued. If amateurs flood into the the graphic design world it doesn’t necessarily mean that the art and esthetic part of graphic design will get devalued. Yes there will be awful designs, and yes those designs would never have seen the light of day without new technologies that allow the non-professional the ability to create with the tools the pros use. However, some designs will be good, and the bad ones will both have withstand critics and the test of time. Most bad ones will fall by the wayside.

    Now as for devaluing the profession of graphic design in the strictly monetary sense of the word, I think Scott’s concerns are more valid. If passable design from a layperson becomes yet another way for corporations to save some bucks, then the professional graphic designer will feel the squeeze financially. The profession of graphic design could become devalued more so than the art form itself.

    This is an issue that arises in every profession where art meets commerce.

  • JIm | November 4, 2009 at 10:23 am |

    New Minnesota Twins road caps are out…

    http://www.neweracap...

  • Caleb | November 4, 2009 at 10:29 am |

    For me there is an issue of audience or client. What I mean is this: if a 5 year old makes a crayon drawing, that has no place in an art exhibit. It does look nice on the fridge at home, however. A symphony orchestra in a major city will not do a piece by a novice student, but her high school band might give it a go. While it would be ridiculous (and cheap) for a major university or professional team to do one of these contests, we are talking about little high schools. How many people are actually going to see the Clarksville baseball team play? If the work isn’t done by a UniWatch reader, won’t it end up being done by an 11 grade art student? You cannot compare criticism of the Oregon Ducks or Minnesota Vikings with a contest for a school in rural Tennessee. The scope and notoriety of the institution makes a difference in the discussion.

  • ClubMedSux | November 4, 2009 at 10:32 am |

    But my disgust is as much with the public’s lack of understanding that these things are tacky as it is with the designer (professional or amateur) that put it designed it.

    I hate to say it, but if certain designs are only visibly tacky to other graphic designers, then who’s to say the designers are right and the public is wrong? Or let me reword it as such: if a professional designer has the knowledge to make a non-tacky design and believes this adds value to his work, but the public won’t realize that, then why should I pay for this added value?

    I understand the point of the quote above, and yeah, I can be a bit critical of designs (like most readers here). But I think the bigger problem here is that we don’t get to assign value to these things… the market does. And if the market is willing to accept a free but sub-par design over a “professional” one that’s marginally better, then so be it. But it’s nobody’s job to artificially inflate the value of something because they think it should be worth more. Unions try that time and time again and it’s simply not sustainable (just ask GM and the UAW).

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 10:35 am |

    What’s even more annoying it that oftentimes the uniforms for major college programs are designed by…

    the football coach.

    Chew on THAT reality for a while and see how it factors in here. LOL

    —Ricko

  • leon | November 4, 2009 at 10:39 am |

    Hadn’t thought about the Voidoids in years.

  • LockBull | November 4, 2009 at 10:46 am |

    [quote comment=”358045″]Hadn’t thought about the Voidoids in years.[/quote]

    “I belong to the ____ generation, I can take it or leave it each time”

  • Jeff P | November 4, 2009 at 10:47 am |

    [quote comment=”358044″]What’s even more annoying it that oftentimes the uniforms for major college programs are designed by…

    the football coach.

    Chew on THAT reality for a while and see how it factors in here. LOL

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Or uniforms for pro sports teams *coughNHLcough* are designed by a GM, sample uniform templates and a pack of crayons.

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 10:50 am |

    [quote comment=”358047″][quote comment=”358044″]What’s even more annoying it that oftentimes the uniforms for major college programs are designed by…

    the football coach.

    Chew on THAT reality for a while and see how it factors in here. LOL

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Or uniforms for pro sports teams *coughNHLcough* are designed by a GM, sample uniform templates and a pack of crayons.[/quote]

    You forgot to throw Reebok in that mix. Can’t forget about being 8% faster because of the material used… meaning everyone has to change their uniform design.

    Jackasses.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 10:50 am |

    Whereas a “designer” got at the UFL.

    Just goes to show ya, nuthin’s perfect.

    —Ricko

  • Dustin | November 4, 2009 at 10:51 am |

    Was Scott being elitist? Maybe. Does he have valid points? Definitely. I just feel that there are places that need the professional eye and touch, where there are other situations that the laypeople’s work is sufficient (e.g. pamphlets for a small group at the local coffeehouse/knitting group, etc.).

    There’s also the group of people who want to become professionals, and in order to do that, they need to practice and learn (having pieces reviewed by a professional and getting tips/tricks rarely hurts), and the smaller audiences, such as the example in Scott’s comments, are great for trying to advance in the profession (especially if the chosen design was theirs).

  • Tom V | November 4, 2009 at 10:55 am |

    [quote comment=”358044″]What’s even more annoying it that oftentimes the uniforms for major college programs are designed by…

    the football coach.

    Chew on THAT reality for a while and see how it factors in here. LOL

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Heres part of the problem for graphic designers, architects, engineers, etc.

    The football team (or college, university, high school) IS the client. They have an idea and its up to the designer to institute that idea. The coach may have a rough idea which he will be open to tweaking/redesigns, etc. Or he might be deadset on a design which no matter how hard the hired designer complains, the coach isn’t changing it.

    Lets say an owner goes to an architect with a design for a house, architect says thats butt ugly I’m not touching that, the owner of the house says fine, I’ll just hire someone else who will. Same with the hardnosed coaches design.

    It happens more often than not in the design community where the owner/client won’t let the design professionals bring the design to a respectable level.

    But then again, its their money, the owners/clients money, they can spend however they like, unfortunately in these cases.

  • Dan King | November 4, 2009 at 10:55 am |

    all i can say about the mystery emailer is – ITS FOR A HIGH SCHOOL TEAM! they more than likely can’t afford a professional designer and if i designed the uni that won i’d be happy just to get one for myself and be able to say that i made it.

  • marc | November 4, 2009 at 10:55 am |

    as a professional designer/animator, i see no problem with having “amateurs” take a swing at what i do for a living. that’s the great thing about art. you don’t need to be a “professional.” it’s the same with music or any other art form. some of the greatest contributions to the arts have been from so-called “outsiders.” if one has a passion to create, that’s all that’s needed. i think if scott considered the amateur designer as more of an “idea man,” he may better understand their value before placing the professional designer in an ivory tower.

    that being said, i very much understand the point scott’s trying to make — which he could have handled a bit more diplomatically. as a profession, designers are constantly undervalued. it’s hard work developing color schemes or creating layouts or coming up with an interesting way to animate text that says “Won’t clog most septic systems!” in the 15+ years i’ve been doing this, i can’t begin to tell you how many late nights and weekends i’ve put in trying to come up with just the right way to deliver a client’s 5 word message in a 15 second animation. if you think “ah, 15 seconds, that’s nothing,” look at the clock then read “won’t clog most septic systems” then see how much time is left. about 12 seconds? we have to account for the remainder of that time — usually by pulling ideas from our backside, meeting our deadline, making it look professional, etc. — which is where the value of the professional becomes apparent. this doesn’t just apply to designers. i would imagine that people like bricklayers or body shop technicians could relate.

  • Juke Early | November 4, 2009 at 10:56 am |

    I’ve done work for free & for pay. Pay is more helpful to survival, natch. Free can be very rewarding. Unless somebody is only taking advantage of you. Drawing the line at when to not just give it away, is a personal one. My guess is Scott has been burned somehow, and it involved money—either he was low balled or outbid by somebody he viewed as an amateur. That gets tricky & nasty.
    However, if the schools, HS or not, don’t at least give the successful designer(s) from UniWatch some of those caps/unis & a well published credit for their work, those schools would be extremely remiss.

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 10:56 am |

    While we’re on the topic of amateur design today, I’d like to present the potential UW Winter Classic t-shirt design that I ran through a website last night.

    Here is the final design. Price comes in around $20 per shirt individually, but if we get 10 or more people interested, there is a price reduction which will be passed on to the people interested.

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 10:57 am |

    For the high schools to design their logo’s and such would be a great opportunity for the students to put their abilities and skills in action. Teaching the art of design, committee, copyright, production, networking vs. them just sitting in a class room and learning about these things in a book and not truly understand how it is done.

  • marc | November 4, 2009 at 10:58 am |

    [quote comment=”358052″]Yeah, but someone has to take the rough sketches and[quote comment=”358049″]Whereas a “designer” got at the UFL.

    Just goes to show ya, nuthin’s perfect.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    The worst part for the designer with the UFL gig is he/she likely only got paid for one design.

  • dwight | November 4, 2009 at 10:58 am |

    [quote comment=”357998″]My wife keep this quote in mind when she deals with overbearing parents at her school.

    “When a parent shows up with an attitude of entitlement, understand that under it is a boatload of anxiety.”

    It seems to apply here.[/quote]

    “There is nothing more annoying than a mother that loves her child.” – Chuck Klosterman. Seems relevant today. no?

  • Jeff P | November 4, 2009 at 10:59 am |

    [quote comment=”358048″][quote comment=”358047″][quote comment=”358044″]What’s even more annoying it that oftentimes the uniforms for major college programs are designed by…

    the football coach.

    Chew on THAT reality for a while and see how it factors in here. LOL

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Or uniforms for pro sports teams *coughNHLcough* are designed by a GM, sample uniform templates and a pack of crayons.[/quote]

    You forgot to throw Reebok in that mix. Can’t forget about being 8% faster because of the material used… meaning everyone has to change their uniform design.

    Jackasses.[/quote]

    Reebok didn’t design the uniforms. They just changed the cut. Teams could use most any design with it- Dallas and Colorado were the only two that really couldn’t keep their design if they didn’t want to.

    Uniform design falls on the teams. Reebok didn’t kill the stripes on the leafs uniform, the leafs did. Other teams kept them with no issues (well, other then the rounded hem).

    Gms and packs of crayons. They weren’t forced to use those templates, a good number of teams didn’t.

  • Mike Braam | November 4, 2009 at 11:00 am |

    Great article…I really am not sure what Scott was trying to say, or maybe NOT say..however I would retort with this,..”If the uniform designer “Pro’s” had a clue….then we wouldn’t have to be even be talking about redesigns or make-overs. There are SO many God awful designs out there today, that this kind of action,(Uniwatch design contest) may just spur someone to go into the Business of this and get things back on the right track!!!

  • Nick | November 4, 2009 at 11:02 am |

    I believe that the Saints wearing BLACK LEOTARD PANTS during their Monday Night Game vs. Atlanta is such an abomination that the grievance should be discussed for at least TWO DAYS.

    A lifelong Saints fan and game attendee, I truly believed that the Saints undefeated start, wearing Gold pants for all six wins, would keep the BLACK LEOTARDS in the closet – at least until they lost. But nooooooooooo, they just had to break them out for national TV. HORRID.

    The Saints, having worn Gold pants for all six regular season games, as well as all four preseason games, game me the false sense of feeling that the team’s decision-makers (Who in the hell decides which teams wear what they wear? To me, that is a tremendous topic for UW!!!! Particularly how trhe decision makers may vary from team-to-team) had matured and gotten over their trendy, childish gutter fetish with the Black pants.

    Apparently not.

    Other than family conflicts, taxes, health and work, the Saints Black leotard pants are the worst thing on my mind.

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 11:05 am |

    [quote comment=”358059″]

    Reebok didn’t design the uniforms. They just changed the cut. Teams could use most any design with it- Dallas and Colorado were the only two that really couldn’t keep their design if they didn’t want to.

    Uniform design falls on the teams. Reebok didn’t kill the stripes on the leafs uniform, the leafs did. Other teams kept them with no issues (well, other then the rounded hem).

    Gms and packs of crayons. They weren’t forced to use those templates, a good number of teams didn’t.[/quote]

    Reebok forced changes in a number of uniforms. The Red Wings’ logo was too big so they had to move the captaincy designation to the opposite shoulder. Can you see the conversation? “Oops. Sorry about that Detroit. Our bad.”

    The unnecessary piping on the jerseys? Not dreamed up by a GM. The apron strings were put there by Reebok, and GMs were given an option to add some colour to them. Was it wrong to give that option to the teams? Maybe. But why have the piping at all? That’s a uniform design flaw.

    I’m not saying that all teams have these problems, but all had the options. Some teams – “Sens”, “Bolts”, anyone who chose a black alternate – do have poor design ideas. But not all are poor artistic elements.

  • Chris | November 4, 2009 at 11:07 am |

    [quote comment=”358041″]New Minnesota Twins road caps are out…

    http://www.neweracap...
    And Royals’ Alt.
    http://www.neweracap...

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 11:08 am |

    [quote comment=”358055″]While we’re on the topic of amateur design today, I’d like to present the potential UW Winter Classic t-shirt design that I ran through a website last night.

    Here is the final design. Price comes in around $20 per shirt individually, but if we get 10 or more people interested, there is a price reduction which will be passed on to the people interested.[/quote]

    hey! i designed that logo…i DEMAND to be paid

    no…seriously

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 11:09 am |

    [quote comment=”358064″][quote comment=”358055″]While we’re on the topic of amateur design today, I’d like to present the potential UW Winter Classic t-shirt design that I ran through a website last night.

    Here is the final design. Price comes in around $20 per shirt individually, but if we get 10 or more people interested, there is a price reduction which will be passed on to the people interested.[/quote]

    hey! i designed that logo…i DEMAND to be paid

    no…seriously[/quote]

    You offered it to me yesterday for free!

    Where’s my home lawsuit kit? I don’t need no stinking lawyers! LOL

  • Stephan Frischkorn | November 4, 2009 at 11:09 am |

    I’m sure my point will go over like a lead ballon, but here it goes.
    I guess when I see professional there is a level of background knowledge implied that is not neccessarily available or considered by others. I loved the cap contest and I like this contest. However, looking at the results for the cap I kept wondering since a lot of things looked similar if there was a consideration to copyright laws. The “professional” is bound and held to a standard to consider such a question. In a hypothetical case let’s say a winner comes about that unfortunately looks too much like something else that is trademarked or otherwise copyrighted. The professional is held accountable for not doing the due dilligence behind their idea. The participants of the contest are not and the school is left holding the bag for any damages that may get awarded.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 11:12 am |

    [quote comment=”358061″]I believe that the Saints wearing BLACK LEOTARD PANTS during their Monday Night Game vs. Atlanta is such an abomination that the grievance should be discussed for at least TWO DAYS.

    A lifelong Saints fan and game attendee, I truly believed that the Saints undefeated start, wearing Gold pants for all six wins, would keep the BLACK LEOTARDS in the closet – at least until they lost. But nooooooooooo, they just had to break them out for national TV. HORRID.

    The Saints, having worn Gold pants for all six regular season games, as well as all four preseason games, game me the false sense of feeling that the team’s decision-makers (Who in the hell decides which teams wear what they wear? To me, that is a tremendous topic for UW!!!! Particularly how trhe decision makers may vary from team-to-team) had matured and gotten over their trendy, childish gutter fetish with the Black pants.

    Apparently not.

    Other than family conflicts, taxes, health and work, the Saints Black leotard pants are the worst thing on my mind.

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]

    I was kind of expecting the Saints to maybe change things up so they didn’t get sucked into being superstitious. Y’know, better to believe “We’ll win based on how we play, not what what we wear”?

    Not saying I liked the look Monday night, but there might have been some good sense behind the apparent madness.

    —Ricko

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 11:12 am |

    [quote comment=”358066″]I’m sure my point will go over like a lead ballon, but here it goes.
    I guess when I see professional there is a level of background knowledge implied that is not neccessarily available or considered by others. I loved the cap contest and I like this contest. However, looking at the results for the cap I kept wondering since a lot of things looked similar if there was a consideration to copyright laws. The “professional” is bound and held to a standard to consider such a question. In a hypothetical case let’s say a winner comes about that unfortunately looks too much like something else that is trademarked or otherwise copyrighted. The professional is held accountable for not doing the due dilligence behind their idea. The participants of the contest are not and the school is left holding the bag for any damages that may get awarded.[/quote]

    So no motion “W”s, people. Lose the motion W designs. ;o)

  • DenverGregg | November 4, 2009 at 11:16 am |

    [quote comment=”358039″]. . . Also, there are two things everyone thinks they’re good at: Creativity and Sex. Generally speaking, the odds are they’re wrong on both counts.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    You forgot driving. Surveys find that upwards of 70% of drivers believe they’re above average.

    Why Taco Bell for the implosion? To demonstrate what it does to the innards of anyone who eats that crap is my first thought.

    I think it would be hilarious if Jack-in-the-Box (the fast food joint) made Texas Stadium into a gigantic jack-in-the-box (toy). Not very likely though.

  • Tom V | November 4, 2009 at 11:16 am |

    [quote comment=”358066″]I’m sure my point will go over like a lead ballon, but here it goes.
    I guess when I see professional there is a level of background knowledge implied that is not neccessarily available or considered by others. I loved the cap contest and I like this contest. However, looking at the results for the cap I kept wondering since a lot of things looked similar if there was a consideration to copyright laws. The “professional” is bound and held to a standard to consider such a question. In a hypothetical case let’s say a winner comes about that unfortunately looks too much like something else that is trademarked or otherwise copyrighted. The professional is held accountable for not doing the due dilligence behind their idea. The participants of the contest are not and the school is left holding the bag for any damages that may get awarded.[/quote]

    Right, and after you’ve gotten an amateur winner in your design, thats the exact reason you should have it continued in a professional manner. I don’t think the point of any amateur logo contest is to take the exact work and call it a finished product.

    Now, can an HS afford 5 or 10 grand to have a professional logo designed? Probably not. Can they afford a few grand to make sure its finished in a professional manner and doesn’t infringe copyright wise? I’d think so.

  • Kevin Z. | November 4, 2009 at 11:16 am |

    Wait, is that article about Georgia Tech correct? The visiting team actually has to allow the home team to wear white? It’s not the home team gets to choose, like in the NFL? The color-on-color thing was bad, but this is just ridiculous. How does LSU get away with wearing white at home all the time? Wouldn’t you think some SEC rival with a douchebag coach (I’m looking at Alabama) would make them wear purple just for the hell of it?

  • Ry Co 40 | November 4, 2009 at 11:20 am |

    [quote comment=”358064″][quote comment=”358055″]While we’re on the topic of amateur design today, I’d like to present the potential UW Winter Classic t-shirt design that I ran through a website last night.

    Here is the final design. Price comes in around $20 per shirt individually, but if we get 10 or more people interested, there is a price reduction which will be passed on to the people interested.[/quote]

    hey! i designed that logo…i DEMAND to be paid

    no…seriously[/quote]

    what’s the uniwatch winter classic? what did i miss??? lol

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 11:23 am |

    [quote comment=”358072″][quote comment=”358064″][quote comment=”358055″]While we’re on the topic of amateur design today, I’d like to present the potential UW Winter Classic t-shirt design that I ran through a website last night.

    Here is the final design. Price comes in around $20 per shirt individually, but if we get 10 or more people interested, there is a price reduction which will be passed on to the people interested.[/quote]

    hey! i designed that logo…i DEMAND to be paid

    no…seriously[/quote]

    what’s the uniwatch winter classic? what did i miss??? lol[/quote]

    I am no longer licensed to use that term for the event happening in Minnesota in January, so I cannot speak about it openly here.

    Phil’s lawyers are all over me at this point. LOL

  • Luke | November 4, 2009 at 11:23 am |

    If you’re a professional and someone finds your work better than amateurs, you need to change professions.

  • Luke | November 4, 2009 at 11:24 am |

    *If someone DOESN’T find your work better than that of an amateur*

  • Kevin Werther | November 4, 2009 at 11:24 am |

    As a graphic designer, I generally agree with Scott. There are many subtleties that make design good, and make it good consistently. Anyone can use photoshop, but that doesn’t mean that their design will be good. Photoshop (etc.) is merely a tool that allows the artist to convey his message. The problem is that there is some design that is overvalued. However, the majority of professional designers are undervalued. People in other related professions (marketing, account management) tend to make more than the designers, yet it is the design that is the show-piece to sell. So, when anyone can go out and create a logo, regardless of training, it does devalue our profession. Anyone can look up symptoms on WebMD, but that doesn’t mean I would trust them to be my doctor. People don’t appreciate enough the work that designers/architects do.

  • Jeff P | November 4, 2009 at 11:26 am |

    [quote comment=”358062″][quote comment=”358059″]

    Reebok didn’t design the uniforms. They just changed the cut. Teams could use most any design with it- Dallas and Colorado were the only two that really couldn’t keep their design if they didn’t want to.

    Uniform design falls on the teams. Reebok didn’t kill the stripes on the leafs uniform, the leafs did. Other teams kept them with no issues (well, other then the rounded hem).

    Gms and packs of crayons. They weren’t forced to use those templates, a good number of teams didn’t.[/quote]

    Reebok forced changes in a number of uniforms. The Red Wings’ logo was too big so they had to move the captaincy designation to the opposite shoulder. Can you see the conversation? “Oops. Sorry about that Detroit. Our bad.”

    The unnecessary piping on the jerseys? Not dreamed up by a GM. The apron strings were put there by Reebok, and GMs were given an option to add some colour to them. Was it wrong to give that option to the teams? Maybe. But why have the piping at all? That’s a uniform design flaw.

    I’m not saying that all teams have these problems, but all had the options. Some teams – “Sens”, “Bolts”, anyone who chose a black alternate – do have poor design ideas. But not all are poor artistic elements.[/quote]

    The apron strings do not exist on all uniforms. The seams are there and piping can be added to them easily, making them an easy thing to customize. Not incredibly different from the traditional cut having a yoke cut as a different piece that it was really easy to change the color of.

    And letters changing sides is not a huge difference. Also, not really reebok’s fault. The Red wings used the excuse that they couldn’t put the letters over the seams when they released them, but that was a flat out lie. Look at the Panthers Unis. They do it all the time.

    The red wings could have also chosen to shrink the logo a bit, or even keep it the same size- I think they actually chose to expand it. That would have let them keep it.

    And honestly, outside of events with a second chest patch, it’s a more balanced design.

    Oh, to be honest I did forget a few unis that had to be changed. The sen’s swoop, the Thrashers white sleeves, some of the sleeve detailing on the preds jerseys… Pretty much all non-traditional design elements that many here seem to hate anyway.

    It forced a few changes, yes. But not nearly as many, nor as drastic as you’re trying to claim. Reebok never forced teams to pick a template as has been claimed so many times, nor did they actively try to kill all horizontal stripes. I jest get tired of people blaming Reebok when lazy team executives deserve most of the credit for what happened.

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 11:27 am |

    [quote comment=”358063″][quote comment=”358041″]New Minnesota Twins road caps are out…

    http://www.neweracap...
    And Royals’ Alt.
    http://www.neweracap...
    Twins: I like it. Navy caps with red brims work for me (as long as the unis aren’t pinstriped).

    Royals: not so much. Invert the colors (royal crown [cola?] with a powder brim) and it’s much better.

    And for the love of God, WHY must New Era keep those gigantic stickers on the brims for the display photos?

  • RedWing in Colorado | November 4, 2009 at 11:28 am |

    [quote comment=”358061″]

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]

    Drew actually wore gold pants for the majority of his time at Purdue, it was pretty rare for the Boilers to go black at home or all-black until Drew was gone. I certainly associate that much more with Kyle “dammit Kyle” Orton than I do with Drew.

  • Judd | November 4, 2009 at 11:29 am |

    [quote comment=”358035″][quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    And whoever said I wasn’t? (Hint: Not me.) Remember, I’m a freelancer — I make a living by producing something and selling it on the open market. In short, I’m an entrepreneur. Just because I’m not a corporate douchebag, that doesn’t mean I don’t have any sense of capitalist enterprise.

    Jeez.[/quote]

    Out of curiosity here, how are you not? Doesn’t writing for the Mothership count as “corporate”?

    Just sayin’, not hatin’.

  • whalemanpw | November 4, 2009 at 11:36 am |

    There are millions of people out there who think that Time + Money Spent Training = Competence, and that those who are un- or self-trained in the traditional, classroom sense could not possibly achieve what a Trained Professional could.

    I am a teacher who was in college just as Teach for America (an intensive immersion program for recent college graduates without teaching degrees) was becoming a big deal. Numerous classmates of mine were livid that these “untrained” folk would be competing for a job with them.

    No piece of paper can indicate my competence at what I do; only my knowledge, experience, and skill can make me great. There are many failures in teaching (and every profession) who have a piece of paper that says they can do it.

    It is up to each individual to determine the fair value of his or her own work; if a designer (“trained” or not) decides to charge a lower price or even donate his or her work, maybe the “professionals” have over-valued themselves…

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 11:37 am |

    [quote comment=”358077″]
    The apron strings do not exist on all uniforms. The seams are there and piping can be added to them easily, making them an easy thing to customize. Not incredibly different from the traditional cut having a yoke cut as a different piece that it was really easy to change the color of.[/quote]

    So you’re saying that the piping is an option provided to the teams by Reebok? Because that’s what I said. Since it is highly unnecessary and serves no purpose, why have it at all?

    [quote comment=”358077″]And letters changing sides is not a huge difference. Also, not really reebok’s fault. The Red wings used the excuse that they couldn’t put the letters over the seams when they released them, but that was a flat out lie. Look at the Panthers Unis. They do it all the time.[/quote]

    The Red Wings used that reasoning because that’s what Reebok had told them. They were one of the first teams to debut their new uniforms. It wasn’t because Detroit said, “we can’t have the letter on a seam”. It was because they were told they couldn’t have it on a seam.

    [quote comment=”358077″]The red wings could have also chosen to shrink the logo a bit, or even keep it the same size- I think they actually chose to expand it. That would have let them keep it.

    And honestly, outside of events with a second chest patch, it’s a more balanced design.[/quote]

    I highly doubt that they made their logo bigger. The problem is that they have the wing that goes nearly onto the shoulder. Why wasn’t this a problem before the EDGE jersey, though? CCM never had this issue when designing Red Wings jerseys.

    And shrinking the Wheeled Wing is out of the question. No team would ever make their logo smaller to facilitate the captaincy designation.

    [quote comment=”358077″]Oh, to be honest I did forget a few unis that had to be changed. The sen’s swoop, the Thrashers white sleeves, some of the sleeve detailing on the preds jerseys… Pretty much all non-traditional design elements that many here seem to hate anyway.

    It forced a few changes, yes. But not nearly as many, nor as drastic as you’re trying to claim. Reebok never forced teams to pick a template as has been claimed so many times, nor did they actively try to kill all horizontal stripes. I jest get tired of people blaming Reebok when lazy team executives deserve most of the credit for what happened.[/quote]

    In other words, since most of the teams have gone back to the traditional air-knit designs, the EDGE jersey was basically a dumb idea. Which is exactly what I have been saying. The fact that the majority of NHL teams are no longer using the “patent-pending, water-wicking, 8%-faster” material is, in itself, a major design screw-up.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 11:40 am |

    “Now, can an HS afford 5 or 10 grand to have a professional logo designed?”

    That’s truly the core issue in this particular discussion, and it mitigates the concern greatly.

    I really don’t think Clarksville High–or any school–would hire a graphic designer for its baseball unis. If they’re like most high school baseball teams, a typical home “crowd” is about 35 people and admission is free.

    More likely it would be simply be the coach and the sporting goods rep coming up with something.

    —Ricko

  • JimV19 | November 4, 2009 at 11:43 am |

    [quote comment=”357993″]So, if my buddies and I play football in the backyard, are we devaluing the NFL?[/quote]

    Don’t give them any ideas…

  • anthony | November 4, 2009 at 11:43 am |

    Scott is right.

    As a creative director myself (with a BFA in Graphic Design), it devalues the hard work and expertise that a graphic designer has tirelessly worked at his entire career.

    That being said, I’m sure the person asking for help in designing a school uniform was not doing this to “get a freebie” — quite the opposite… this site is full of passionate creatively driven people who love uniforms.

    But after reading some responses, it’s amazing to me just how many people think they’re “creative” because they own a computer and photoshop. That’s not to say they don’t have some sort of talent, but when you spend thousands of dollars to attend an art school and walk away with a degree and then have to fight and scrape to earn a living just because some guy says, “my 12-year old can do that on the computer” — you can see Scott’s point.

    The graphic design profession does NOT have a union, therefor, it’s not like construction workers, plumbers, electricians, and other trade skill professions who have set hourly or fixed rates. Just try and ask a plumber friend next time to come over and fix your sink on spec. He’ll laugh his ass off.

    Look, I think “design challenges” and the other things we see on this web forum are fun and engaging. It’s the asking to produce a professional grade design that will be worn or sold for little or no compensation is what the issue is — and with that in mind, I am on Scott’s side.

    Just my two cents…

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 11:44 am |

    [quote comment=”358080″][quote comment=”358035″][quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    And whoever said I wasn’t? (Hint: Not me.) Remember, I’m a freelancer — I make a living by producing something and selling it on the open market. In short, I’m an entrepreneur. Just because I’m not a corporate douchebag, that doesn’t mean I don’t have any sense of capitalist enterprise.

    Jeez.[/quote]

    Out of curiosity here, how are you not? Doesn’t writing for the Mothership count as “corporate”?

    Just sayin’, not hatin’.[/quote]

    Pretty sure he meant “corporate” as sitting a cubicle somewhere all day, with two weeks vacation, etc.

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 11:44 am |

    [quote comment=”358083″]”Now, can an HS afford 5 or 10 grand to have a professional logo designed?”

    That’s truly the core issue in this particular discussion, and it mitigates the concern greatly.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Again, It could afford though to let a local college student graphic artist expand their portfoilio greatly or work in conjunction with an apprentance of graphic design so they both can gain something/ quality experience with an important product.

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 11:47 am |

    Anyone hear about US Speed Skating’s new sponsor?

    Colbert Nation is now the primary sponsor. Stephen Colbert was admittedly proud of the Colbert Nation for raising over $40,000 in the past two days.

    Thoughts on this?

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 11:48 am |

    [quote comment=”358087″][quote comment=”358083″]”Now, can an HS afford 5 or 10 grand to have a professional logo designed?”

    That’s truly the core issue in this particular discussion, and it mitigates the concern greatly.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Again, It could afford though to let a local college student graphic artist expand their portfoilio greatly or work in conjunction with an apprentance of graphic design so they both can gain something/ quality experience with an important product.[/quote]

    Oh, absolutely. Even one of the school’s own students. I just meant there’s isn’t a paid gig being lost in the deal.

    —Ricko

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 11:49 am |

    [quote comment=”358086″][quote comment=”358080″][quote comment=”358035″][quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    And whoever said I wasn’t? (Hint: Not me.) Remember, I’m a freelancer — I make a living by producing something and selling it on the open market. In short, I’m an entrepreneur. Just because I’m not a corporate douchebag, that doesn’t mean I don’t have any sense of capitalist enterprise.

    Jeez.[/quote]

    Out of curiosity here, how are you not? Doesn’t writing for the Mothership count as “corporate”?

    Just sayin’, not hatin’.[/quote]

    Pretty sure he meant “corporate” as sitting a cubicle somewhere all day, with two weeks vacation, etc.[/quote]
    Hmmmm… I work for a corporation and my desk is in a cubicle and I get three weeks of vacation (it goes up to four next year). Does that make me a corporate douchebag?

  • Paul Lukas | November 4, 2009 at 11:50 am |

    [quote comment=”358086″][quote comment=”358080″][quote comment=”358035″][quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    And whoever said I wasn’t? (Hint: Not me.) Remember, I’m a freelancer — I make a living by producing something and selling it on the open market. In short, I’m an entrepreneur. Just because I’m not a corporate douchebag, that doesn’t mean I don’t have any sense of capitalist enterprise.

    Jeez.[/quote]

    Out of curiosity here, how are you not? Doesn’t writing for the Mothership count as “corporate”?

    Just sayin’, not hatin’.[/quote]

    Pretty sure he meant “corporate” as sitting a cubicle somewhere all day, with two weeks vacation, etc.[/quote]

    Not quite — I’d never call a cubicle drone a douchebag.

    What I mean is, just because I’m opposed to corporate practices as engaged in by Nike, Reebok, etc. doesn’t mean I’m anti-capitalism per se.

  • Ryan | November 4, 2009 at 11:52 am |

    I will make the disclaimer that I graduated in May and am currently looking for a job in several fields, including sports branding (I did a decent amount for free while freelancing during college).

    I have read since the summer about ads being placed on practice jerseys, and how this was a first step towards logos on game-time jerseys and how it was just another way for teams that already make gross amounts of profit to make more of it.

    Now, I understand that this is a high school, and that their profits on such gear would be minimal, but if we use the above principle, what would stop a larger, more profitable sports organization from doing something similar? You’ll get plenty of devoted fans of whatever professional team who have that “I would love to design the look of my favorite team! Just seeing it in-use would be payment enough!”, and suddenly you have created the ultimate enticement; you’ll get maybe more work, for absolutely no cost. It’s no matter what the professionals would do, if you’re getting work for free then that’s the best thing they could ask for. As some would say, it’s a slippery slope.

    That all said, I’m working on designs for said High School, in the counter intuitive thought that having such a design in my portfolio would help me get paid for that work in the future… I see me, and everybody else, showing how fruitless my efforts have been. It’s only 11 am here, but I may need a drink…

  • Christopher | November 4, 2009 at 11:53 am |

    [quote comment=”358085″]Scott is right.

    As a creative director myself (with a BFA in Graphic Design), it devalues the hard work and expertise that a graphic designer has tirelessly worked at his entire career.

    That being said, I’m sure the person asking for help in designing a school uniform was not doing this to “get a freebie” — quite the opposite… this site is full of passionate creatively driven people who love uniforms.

    But after reading some responses, it’s amazing to me just how many people think they’re “creative” because they own a computer and photoshop. That’s not to say they don’t have some sort of talent, but when you spend thousands of dollars to attend an art school and walk away with a degree and then have to fight and scrape to earn a living just because some guy says, “my 12-year old can do that on the computer” — you can see Scott’s point.

    The graphic design profession does NOT have a union, therefor, it’s not like construction workers, plumbers, electricians, and other trade skill professions who have set hourly or fixed rates. Just try and ask a plumber friend next time to come over and fix your sink on spec. He’ll laugh his ass off.

    Look, I think “design challenges” and the other things we see on this web forum are fun and engaging. It’s the asking to produce a professional grade design that will be worn or sold for little or no compensation is what the issue is — and with that in mind, I am on Scott’s side.

    Just my two cents…[/quote]

    I too am in the graphic/web design world, but I can’t agree with you or Scott.

    Things are worth what people will pay for them, and what people will quote out for them. That may be zero dollars for some jobs.

    It doesn’t devalue all of graphic design. Do you think Pepsi is going to have a contest to design their next logo for free? No way. They’re still going to pay millions for a logo/corporate identity.

    Even medium sized businesses are still going to pay a few thousand for such a job. Because its just that important to them.

    Your plumber analogy is off. A better analogy is: My friend could pay a plumber hundreds to install a toilet, or he could have me (an amateur- but someone who has successfully installed toilets DIY) over to help install one for a 6-pack of beer.

    Yeah, he’s taking a slight risk. But come on- any of us homeowners know we can DIY our way through most jobs.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 11:54 am |

    [quote comment=”358088″]Anyone hear about US Speed Skating’s new sponsor?

    Colbert Nation is now the primary sponsor. Stephen Colbert was admittedly proud of the Colbert Nation for raising over $40,000 in the past two days.

    Thoughts on this?[/quote]

    I think Colbert Nation tries to proudly represent all that is best about corporate America, and this is simply following the time-honored tradition paying your way into looking like you’re involved.

    In other words, it’s his bit, and as such, it’s perfect.

    Personally, I’d have preferred the luge team. Really would like to see Stephen Colbert take the ceremonial first run. For the screaming, if nothing else.

    —Ricko

  • Randy Miller | November 4, 2009 at 11:57 am |

    NCAA rules state that the home team wears the dark jerseys and road teams wear the whites. It requires the road team’s permission to make the switch.

    Last year, West Virginia held a “white-out” to honor Pat White and USF agreed to wear its green jerseys in Morgantown.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 11:57 am |

    [quote comment=”358093″][quote comment=”358085″]Scott is right.

    As a creative director myself (with a BFA in Graphic Design), it devalues the hard work and expertise that a graphic designer has tirelessly worked at his entire career.

    That being said, I’m sure the person asking for help in designing a school uniform was not doing this to “get a freebie” — quite the opposite… this site is full of passionate creatively driven people who love uniforms.

    But after reading some responses, it’s amazing to me just how many people think they’re “creative” because they own a computer and photoshop. That’s not to say they don’t have some sort of talent, but when you spend thousands of dollars to attend an art school and walk away with a degree and then have to fight and scrape to earn a living just because some guy says, “my 12-year old can do that on the computer” — you can see Scott’s point.

    The graphic design profession does NOT have a union, therefor, it’s not like construction workers, plumbers, electricians, and other trade skill professions who have set hourly or fixed rates. Just try and ask a plumber friend next time to come over and fix your sink on spec. He’ll laugh his ass off.

    Look, I think “design challenges” and the other things we see on this web forum are fun and engaging. It’s the asking to produce a professional grade design that will be worn or sold for little or no compensation is what the issue is — and with that in mind, I am on Scott’s side.

    Just my two cents…[/quote]

    I too am in the graphic/web design world, but I can’t agree with you or Scott.

    Things are worth what people will pay for them, and what people will quote out for them. That may be zero dollars for some jobs.

    It doesn’t devalue all of graphic design. Do you think Pepsi is going to have a contest to design their next logo for free? No way. They’re still going to pay millions for a logo/corporate identity.

    Even medium sized businesses are still going to pay a few thousand for such a job. Because its just that important to them.

    Your plumber analogy is off. A better analogy is: My friend could pay a plumber hundreds to install a toilet, or he could have me (an amateur- but someone who has successfully installed toilets DIY) over to help install one for a 6-pack of beer.

    Yeah, he’s taking a slight risk. But come on- any of us homeowners know we can DIY our way through most jobs.[/quote]

    Ah, but would he be wise to let you DESIGN a new toilet for his home?
    (so many aspects in this, aren’t there?)

    —Ricko

  • JimV19 | November 4, 2009 at 12:00 pm |

    [quote comment=”358042″]For me there is an issue of audience or client. What I mean is this: if a 5 year old makes a crayon drawing, that has no place in an art exhibit. It does look nice on the fridge at home, however.[/quote]

    Have you seen some modern art??

  • Chris | November 4, 2009 at 12:02 pm |

    [quote comment=”358078″][quote comment=”358063″][quote comment=”358041″]New Minnesota Twins road caps are out…

    http://www.neweracap...
    And Royals’ Alt.
    http://www.neweracap...
    Twins: I like it. Navy caps with red brims work for me (as long as the unis aren’t pinstriped).

    Royals: not so much. Invert the colors (royal crown [cola?] with a powder brim) and it’s much better.

    And for the love of God, WHY must New Era keep those gigantic stickers on the brims for the display photos?[/quote]
    Because they want to look cool. They clearly did not get this memo

  • Brendan | November 4, 2009 at 12:06 pm |

    Anyone else catch the camo jerseys that the Ducks were wearing last nite during warm ups before their game against the Penguins?

    I hadn’t seen them before.

    I guess they’re wearing them on Saturday:

    http://ducks.nhl.com...

  • brad keppler | November 4, 2009 at 12:07 pm |

    let me also remind you that the BIG TEN logo was created by a college student at Northwestern University for next to nothing and the NIKE logo was created by a college student for $200. the nike swoosh by the way is considered the most recognizable logo in the world. we are talking about a high school team, not the green bay packers.

  • Brendan | November 4, 2009 at 12:07 pm |

    Actually, reading that again, they only wore them last nite during warmups and are auctioning some of them off on Saturday, not wearing them.

  • Respect Condor | November 4, 2009 at 12:07 pm |

    I am a professional artist, I have been reading this site for as long as it has been around and Paul’s writing even longer than that. This is the first topic that has every prompted me to make a comment. What I love so much about this site is its wonderful mix of design insight and news and a forum that lets public opinion to be expressed. As an artist I constantly find my self in the “a five year old kid could do that” conversation. My response has always been okay show me a five year old kid that has done that. Art and design are such great things because it is a way to showcase ideas visually. It is something that should be encouraged to everyone no matter profession or age because it is another way to think creatively and critically.

    This has become my favorite website because it has found a topic that allows people feel comfortable interacting with art and design in a way that could not be done in a museum, gallery, or design class. Letting everyone attempt design and art does not drag it down in value it enriches it. It gives people a context to understand how it works and yes even how hard it is. If there is one thing i have learned in all my years of work it is to appreciate something fully you have to try it even if you fail.

    People are doing this for fun and if they produce something so great that it “threatens” designers isn’t that a good thing? A good idea is a good idea no matter where it comes from and good design is good design no matter who makes it. When it comes down to it I want to see the most visually interesting and dynamic things no matter who created it. It just so happens that in 95% of the cases it comes from a designer or artists. But that is not because they are far far superior, it is because they spend far more of their time doing it. I guess what i am trying to say is that everyone is capable of something creative and I get very disappointed when someone cannot realize that this only brings more value to truly great creativity.

    -RespectCondor

  • mmwatkin | November 4, 2009 at 12:09 pm |

    I don’t understand how a graphic designer thinks that his profession should be shielded from the rise of competition that is created as technology advances. All professions are feeling this squeeze. Instead of complaining about it, I would rather focus on creating a product that someone WANTS to pay for rather than HAS to pay for.

    A high school design contest is a terrible choice for a professional designer to get his/her pants in a twist. I worked with the athletic department for my high school and they never even considered paying a designer for their uniforms. The budget was already too thin. They constructed their uniforms by picking a template out of a jersey catalog and telling the representative (who earned no commission for the design) what colors you want. Wouldn’t you say that practice undermines the profession a little big bigger than amateurs giving their effort to create something unique?

    I guess my point is that I consider graphic design very much an art form. I have always felt that art is best when it is opened up to as many people and as many viewpoints and interpretations as possible. Some of the best logos were created not by a panel of “experts”, but rather a guy or girl sitting at home doodling on a napkin.

    Nothing wrong with that.

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 12:10 pm |

    [quote comment=”358094″][quote comment=”358088″]Anyone hear about US Speed Skating’s new sponsor?

    Colbert Nation is now the primary sponsor. Stephen Colbert was admittedly proud of the Colbert Nation for raising over $40,000 in the past two days.

    Thoughts on this?[/quote]

    I think Colbert Nation tries to proudly represent all that is best about corporate America, and this is simply following the time-honored tradition paying your way into looking like you’re involved.

    In other words, it’s his bit, and as such, it’s perfect.

    Personally, I’d have preferred the luge team. Really would like to see Stephen Colbert take the ceremonial first run. For the screaming, if nothing else.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    Did you happen to catch his “tennis lesson” recently? Yeah, it’s actually somewhat relevant to this blog.

  • David T | November 4, 2009 at 12:12 pm |

    As a professional writer at an ad agency, I collaborate with designers constantly. While they are trained professionals, they are always open to feedback from me, and in turn I will implement a good idea for copy from them.

    Having said that, a lot of clients are very specific about what they want, and designers in my line of work usually have to stay within a fixed set of parameters for what our clients would find acceptable. I would think it’s similar for uniform or logo design–most of what comes from a professional designer is probably subject to those restrictions, and the final versions are likely the products of compromise (how else to explain some of the kitchen sink designs out there).

    So I think it’s great that “laypeople” submit their ideas, to “think outside the box” as my least favorite corporatism goes. Isn’t that what YouTube and blogs and everything else are about? Letting the “ordinary” people have their say? And if something worthwhile comes out of it, all the better.

  • mmwatkin | November 4, 2009 at 12:12 pm |
  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 12:13 pm |

    [quote comment=”358100″]let me also remind you that the BIG TEN logo was created by a college student at Northwestern University for next to nothing and the NIKE logo was created by a college student for $200. the nike swoosh by the way is considered the most recognizable logo in the world. we are talking about a high school team, not the green bay packers.[/quote]

    Actually, I think she got less than $200 for the Nike logo.
    (Phil Knight reportedly said, “Well, I don’t love it; but maybe it’ll grow on me.”)

    Although she did later retire at the age of 35, I believe, so I suspect Knight subsequently saw that she got more than a few shares of Nike stock somewhere along the way.

    —Ricko

  • Teebz | November 4, 2009 at 12:13 pm |

    [quote comment=”358099″]Anyone else catch the camo jerseys that the Ducks were wearing last nite during warm ups before their game against the Penguins?

    I hadn’t seen them before.

    I guess they’re wearing them on Saturday:

    http://ducks.nhl.com...

    The camo jerseys are for warm-ups only. They will still wear their normal uniforms for the game that night as they raise funds for Operation Homefront. The warm-up jerseys will be auctioned off with proceeds going to Operation Homefront.

    Four of the Ducks were wearing them last night before the game against the Penguins.

  • Ryan | November 4, 2009 at 12:13 pm |

    [quote comment=”358100″]let me also remind you that the BIG TEN logo was created by a college student at Northwestern University for next to nothing and the NIKE logo was created by a college student for $200. the nike swoosh by the way is considered the most recognizable logo in the world. we are talking about a high school team, not the green bay packers.[/quote]

    And the most common remark I’ve heard about the Nike Swoosh being bought for $200 is not that the kid must have been proud that his logo adorned Nike gear, but “damn, dude got ripped-off!”

  • Mike | November 4, 2009 at 12:16 pm |

    This video seems to be on topic. It’s funny.

    http://www.core77.co...

  • Mike | November 4, 2009 at 12:18 pm |

    …oh, and btw, that video referenced above has some “language” in it, so if you’re easily offended, you might want to give it a pass.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 12:23 pm |

    Nike logo story. She didn’t exactly get ripped off.

    http://www.dinesh.co...

    —Ricko

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 12:23 pm |

    I feel that many people are missing some crucial points: there is much more to graphic design/editing/motion graphics etc., especially at a higher level.

    There many legalities, restrictions, contracts and other situations that arise because of the nature of this business. Example: (I mentioned this before, sort of) Why is it okay for someone to say, copy my show template, graphics or even music for them to create their own just because they are ordinary?

    I am under contract that ANYTHING I create belongs to my company, so it’s when I see “ordinary” people copying my style, or others I work with, it becomes frustrating to see that others are not only piggybacking on my work (and my companies), but literally using something that is NOT THEIRS.

    Everyone is an “ordinary” person, but there are those who excel and wish to protect what is theirs.

  • Paul Lukas | November 4, 2009 at 12:23 pm |

    Just wanna say that this is one of the best comment sections EVER! Really great points being made from all sides. Very happy to have gotten the ball rolling on such an interesting discussion.

  • leon | November 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm |

    From the internets:

    The Nike “Swoosh” is a design created in 1971 by Carolyn Davidson, a graphic design student at Portland State University. She met Phil Knight while he was teaching accounting classes and she started doing some freelance work for his company, Blue Ribbon Sports (BRS).

    BRS needed a new brand for a new line of athletic footwear it was preparing to introduce in 1972. Knight approached Davidson for design ideas, and she agreed to provide them, charging a rate of $2 per hour.

    In June 1971, Davidson presented a number of design options to Knight and other BRS executives, and they ultimately selected the mark now known globally as the Swoosh. Davidson submitted a bill for $35 for her work. (In 1983, Knight gave Davidson a gold Swoosh ring and an envelope filled with Nike stock to express his gratitude.)

  • Kerry P | November 4, 2009 at 12:26 pm |
  • Kerry P | November 4, 2009 at 12:26 pm |

    Apostrophe User Guide

    Stupid links!

  • Stu | November 4, 2009 at 12:27 pm |

    For proper context, I am a graphic design student who is about to graduate from UNT.

    I’m not sure what exactly the original email was brought against, this specific contest or the notion of design contests. Ultimately, will this specific design contest for a high school bring on the apocalypse and simultaneously wipe out any design professional? No. Can this notion help contribute to an overall idea that design isn’t difficult therefore no design is worth the amount of money professionals will charge? Yes.

    Now, I am completely in favor of pro bono work when it comes to non profits. These entities are ultimately not gaining monetary benefits so I wouldn’t say a designer is entitled to them either. And I could see an argument for a public (which I hope is true in this case) school having the same standing as a non profit because ultimately any money coming from football games is funneled back into the school anyway. Although i doubt I would do free work for any school besides my alma mater.

    My main issue with this like I said is the power of a small notion to have. The idea of spec work has been seen on a large scale level before. A couple years ago, the Indianapolis Colts ran a fan contest to design an alternate logo. I believe they were offering some compensation in the form of tickets but I know it was well below what they would have had to pay a professional firm for the logo.

    In the end, if a company is not going to pay the prices some firms charge and they would rather have their secretary create something word, there is nothing we can do about it. It may contribute to the visual pollution of poor design but it’s not killing anyone. However to say that spec work does not affect pocket books of designers is ridiculous. Many companies consider design spec work necessary for work to even be considered. Therefore you end up with 5 firms doing X amount of work and 4 firms not being paid, even though those firms still have to pay their designers that were utilized to work on it. This means firms losing money and people losing their jobs.

    P.S.- someone said it and I feel like it got totally glazed over, the Nike logo was done by Carolyn Davidson who Phil Knight paid $35. Once Nike went public, she was awarded an undisclosed amount of Nike stock.

  • Stu | November 4, 2009 at 12:28 pm |

    Leon must have gotten his post in while I was writing man, thanks for pointing that out

  • Larry Torrez | November 4, 2009 at 12:32 pm |

    Paul,

    Reading your latest blog about Mr. Misner’s comments about logo design contests and the devaluing of the graphic design profession and the fall of capitalism as we know it (alright, that last part was made up and I am now taking my tongue out of my cheek).

    He is implying of course that free design work by “amateurs” are doing a disservice to the graphic community at large because they lack the skills and training to create work that design firms charge top dollar for, therefore cheapening the product and lowering the bar for design standards (i.e. see Buffalo Bills – no wait, that was professionally done — no amateur could achieve that).

    He need not worry, there are thousands of professional graphic designers and design firms who have all the training that art schools can muster, all the experience one could rely on and still produce lousy design work all on their own. The reason business “doesn’t get it” most often stems from a failure of the designer to execute the design goals of the project. Professional design work is a collaboration between the client and the designer, that is by definition, amateurs working with professionals to satisfy a design need. Since the “amateurs” are paying for the work, they tend to have the final say and this is where the devaluation of the profession occurs.

    I offer this opinion based on over 30 years of agency work, mostly with companies that we know and love and sometimes hate for their output. I do not mean to demean Mr. Misner’s comments about “free” work but I feel the blame should be put on the people that have earned it (the Professionals), only by accepting that charge can we then raise the bar on producing quality work that is memorable, timeless and popular.

    As for your uni-contests for the masses of regular Joes (small schools who cannot afford designers), I think it is a very good thing to put designers who have a passion for it (albeit some, with limited skills but good ideas) with people who have a need for good design. In the design game one only gets better with practice and these are great practice environments because everyone gets something out of the experience, except pros, who must be paid and would not take the job for that reason alone.

    When I do a gig for gratis I apply the same processes I would for a fortune 500 company, but with a twist. I also offer them a way to make money based on the designs (i.e. t-shirt designs, cap sales and such…) so that they can raise capitol on their own to one day be able to pay for future design work. You have to remind your clients that establishing a logo (branding) does not explode from a designers mind onto the world like a lightning bolt, (unless you are Todd Radom, one of the best in the business) but evolves based on what the client wants and what the designer perceives they need.

    Lastly, I offer this for the “amateurs” who have a passion for design. The man I consider the best graphic artist this country ever produced, Paul Rand had less than one year of “art school” training. At Marvel comics, (at least when I was there last millennium) all of the great artists there had NO formal art training at all, zip, nada. How is this possible?

    They succeeded because they loved the work they were doing and pushed themselves to get better by offering their services to any group for any price, even gratis… because in the course of time all that free work paid off a thousand fold by the constant practice of their craft, it gave them an edge in their chosen fields of design and paved the way to their success.

    Larry Torrez
    Professional Artist
    and proud Uni-Watch card carrying member

  • brad keppler | November 4, 2009 at 12:33 pm |

    thanks Ricko and Leon

  • SWC Susan (aka Tex) | November 4, 2009 at 12:35 pm |

    [quote comment=”357984″]The Blackhawks lockers have a black-and-white rendition of Tommy Hawk, and the B&W logo really makes the facial features stand out, to a point where the war paint looks like letters. Is this a hidden signature from when the logo was redesigned in 1964? Or does it somehow say Tommy Hawk?”

    That is NOT Tommy Hawk. That is Chief Black Hawk.

    This is Tommy Hawk:

    http://blackhawks.nh...
    Sorry, I live in Texas… what I do I know about the Blackhawks? Um…. Go Stars!

  • SWC Susan (aka Tex) | November 4, 2009 at 12:38 pm |

    [quote comment=”358004″]By the way, Paul and gang, thanks for getting the Twitter feed hopping. I was happy to see a post leading me here this morning.[/quote]

    Agreed – stoked!

  • MPowers1634 | November 4, 2009 at 12:39 pm |

    Excellent writing prompt today. Kudos to both Scott and Paul.

    On a different note regarding Darius Marshall from the Thundering Herd.

    I played ball with a friend named Darius Marshall.
    Unfortunately, he led a life that was cut short by tragedy. He survived being hit by debris and believed to be dead on 9.11 only to become a victim of a senseless accident aboard the Staten Island ferry:

    http://www.artaid.or...

    R.I.P.

  • SWC Susan (aka Tex) | November 4, 2009 at 12:40 pm |

    [quote comment=”358005″]Paul,

    I think you missed the point of Scott’s email. He is not arguing for “laypeople” not to participate in a design contest. He is arguing against giving away your work for free.

    From a designer’s view this is like arguing against shipping a manufacturing job oversees. Say the manufacturing job in America is $50k a year and the same job oversees is $5k a year. You’ve basically just said the work that I do is not worth $50k and I’ve lost my job/income. Likewise you are saying the worker overseas is only worth $5k, which severely undervalues the work they do and doesn’t provide much in terms of living wage.

    Now one thing I will say before I go further is, if I remember correctly, this is a contest for a high school, or some not-for-profit team. In which case, an open contest sounds cool to me. Also, I love seeing all the DIY work and uni mockups on this site. Obviously a lot of people do those because they are super fun and that is reward enough. You only hope to share your work and hang out with a community of people who you think didn\’t exist prior to this site existing and that is totally badass.

    But, doing work for a contest in which the end owner of the designs either pays you nothing or just a few thousand dollars DOES devalue the work of what professional designers do. For example. If I am sports team owner A and I see that team owner B is getting his logo work done for 10k, I want my work done for 10k or less as well. Thats the market price. But if I see team owner B getting that same work done for 1k or nothing at all, then thats where the market starts to set. The perception becomes, “Good work does not cost much. Design is cheap.” When of course thats not the case. Work costs something.

    One last thing. This site, and I would say Paul in particular, have created a culture where an emphasis has been placed on “Quality”. Quality in this case meaning, excellent craftsmanship, substantial materials, and generally uniforms from a bygone era. Those qualities cost more money. Many people here are doing quality work. Giving it away does your work and other quality work a disservice.[/quote]
    This is why I went into engineering instead of design… there is ALWAYS someone to do the job for free to get it in their portfolio!

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 12:40 pm |

    [quote comment=”358122″][quote comment=”357984″]The Blackhawks lockers have a black-and-white rendition of Tommy Hawk, and the B&W logo really makes the facial features stand out, to a point where the war paint looks like letters. Is this a hidden signature from when the logo was redesigned in 1964? Or does it somehow say Tommy Hawk?”

    That is NOT Tommy Hawk. That is Chief Black Hawk.

    This is Tommy Hawk:

    http://blackhawks.nh...
    Sorry, I live in Texas… what I do I know about the Blackhawks? Um…. Go Stars![/quote]
    Apparently, you know about as much as a certain Brooklyn resident.

  • another Josh | November 4, 2009 at 12:41 pm |

    A similar issue arose when I was attending Iowa State University. While I was there, the University decided to update the logo used by the sports teams. They ultimately decided on the recently replaced “Cy in a cyclone” image, as provided by a large design firm who was paid a lot of money. There was a large outcry from the College of Design, asking why, when there was a fine school of design with many talented professors and students, was this sent out to an outside firm. The thinking was that many students would have loved to have the shot to come up with the new logo, just for the ability to design it, and if their design was chosen, to put it on their resume when looking for a job post-graduation. I don’t remember the resolution, however.

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 12:41 pm |

    Paul: It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this in a few days…after all has been said

  • EddieAtari | November 4, 2009 at 12:41 pm |

    Funny video clip from The Daily Show with tons of fan garb and Jason Jones in an orange pimp suit…

  • JimV19 | November 4, 2009 at 12:42 pm |

    Great topic today.

    I understand Scott’s feelings, but in the end I side with the free market. The best trained designers will have work – there’s enough to go around.

    The problem is, some (not all) designers feel the need to justify their training and skill by adding all sorts of extras – “Look what I can do. Your average kid can’t DIY a jersey with beveled numbers or sublimated graphics,” or something like that. They can also forget about the beauty that can be found in simplicity.

    Basically the design-a-cap contest is like “American Idol.” Yes, the majority of contestants don’t belong there, but the cream rises to the top. I don’t think it devalues the music profession or the design profession – in fact, it shows you how hard it is to win something of this nature. Long live competition.

    One final thought. Does your place of work have interns? Are they “devaluing” your profession as well? Try doing all your work without their help. Your current business, and the future of your profession, would suffer without them.

  • SWC Susan (aka Tex) | November 4, 2009 at 12:42 pm |

    [quote comment=”358015″]ps. that girl’s tattoo is incredible.[/quote]
    It is a connect the dots… anyone print it out and see what it was? It is also taped on… :/

  • MPowers1634 | November 4, 2009 at 12:47 pm |

    [quote comment=”358120″]Paul,

    Reading your latest blog about Mr. Misner’s comments about logo design contests and the devaluing of the graphic design profession and the fall of capitalism as we know it (alright, that last part was made up and I am now taking my tongue out of my cheek).

    He is implying of course that free design work by “amateurs” are doing a disservice to the graphic community at large because they lack the skills and training to create work that design firms charge top dollar for, therefore cheapening the product and lowering the bar for design standards (i.e. see Buffalo Bills – no wait, that was professionally done — no amateur could achieve that).

    He need not worry, there are thousands of professional graphic designers and design firms who have all the training that art schools can muster, all the experience one could rely on and still produce lousy design work all on their own. The reason business “doesn’t get it” most often stems from a failure of the designer to execute the design goals of the project. Professional design work is a collaboration between the client and the designer, that is by definition, amateurs working with professionals to satisfy a design need. Since the “amateurs” are paying for the work, they tend to have the final say and this is where the devaluation of the profession occurs.

    I offer this opinion based on over 30 years of agency work, mostly with companies that we know and love and sometimes hate for their output. I do not mean to demean Mr. Misner’s comments about “free” work but I feel the blame should be put on the people that have earned it (the Professionals), only by accepting that charge can we then raise the bar on producing quality work that is memorable, timeless and popular.

    As for your uni-contests for the masses of regular Joes (small schools who cannot afford designers), I think it is a very good thing to put designers who have a passion for it (albeit some, with limited skills but good ideas) with people who have a need for good design. In the design game one only gets better with practice and these are great practice environments because everyone gets something out of the experience, except pros, who must be paid and would not take the job for that reason alone.

    When I do a gig for gratis I apply the same processes I would for a fortune 500 company, but with a twist. I also offer them a way to make money based on the designs (i.e. t-shirt designs, cap sales and such…) so that they can raise capitol on their own to one day be able to pay for future design work. You have to remind your clients that establishing a logo (branding) does not explode from a designers mind onto the world like a lightning bolt, (unless you are Todd Radom, one of the best in the business) but evolves based on what the client wants and what the designer perceives they need.

    Lastly, I offer this for the “amateurs” who have a passion for design. The man I consider the best graphic artist this country ever produced, Paul Rand had less than one year of “art school” training. At Marvel comics, (at least when I was there last millennium) all of the great artists there had NO formal art training at all, zip, nada. How is this possible?

    They succeeded because they loved the work they were doing and pushed themselves to get better by offering their services to any group for any price, even gratis… because in the course of time all that free work paid off a thousand fold by the constant practice of their craft, it gave them an edge in their chosen fields of design and paved the way to their success.

    Larry Torrez
    Professional Artist
    and proud Uni-Watch card carrying member[/quote]

    Beautifully said, Larry!

  • leon | November 4, 2009 at 12:48 pm |

    A woman was awakened one night by a strange noise coming from her furnace. Not wanting to pay a professional HVAC mechanic, she asked her husband to fix this simple problem. After spending the better part of the next Saturday seeking a solution, her husband threw up his hands in defeat. The woman next turned to her brother, who considered himself as handy as the next guy, but he too could not find a fix. After several sleepless nights, she finally broke down and called in a professional who she was convinced would rip her off.
    The mechanic arrived and immediately went down to the basement. The woman stayed at the top of the stairs, suspiciously listening to what transpired below. After about 3 minutes of surveying the situation, the mechanic pulled out a hammer, and struck the furnace in 3 locations. The noise immediately stopped. He climbed the stairs and before leaving, handed the homeowner a bill which read:
    Fixing furnace: $75.
    “$75?”, she bitched, “you were only here for 5 minutes and just hit the furnace 3 times with a hammer”.
    The mechanic sighed, took the bill from her and re-wrote it. The new one read:
    Hitting furnace with hammer: $3.00
    Knowing where to hit it: $72.00

  • Trurologist | November 4, 2009 at 12:54 pm |

    [quote comment=”358131″][quote comment=”358015″]ps. that girl’s tattoo is incredible.[/quote]
    It is a connect the dots… anyone print it out and see what it was? It is also taped on… :/[/quote]

    My guess is giraffe…

  • mmwatkin | November 4, 2009 at 12:58 pm |

    count the players who now play for a different team!

    http://kids.woot.com...

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 1:00 pm |

    Speaking of designs…

    Don’t forget, UFL (Las Vegas at New York), 7 pm EST, Versus.

    Yeah, there’s that World Series thing, too (so, watch UFL during commercials for, um, contrast and to see how really obvious it is that updated unis are always better than boring, dull, largely traditional crap like Yankees and Phillies).

    Need some classy teal and lime, they do, those baseball teams.

    —Ricko

  • MPowers1634 | November 4, 2009 at 1:07 pm |

    [quote comment=”358133″]A woman was awakened one night by a strange noise coming from her furnace. Not wanting to pay a professional HVAC mechanic, she asked her husband to fix this simple problem. After spending the better part of the next Saturday seeking a solution, her husband threw up his hands in defeat. The woman next turned to her brother, who considered himself as handy as the next guy, but he too could not find a fix. After several sleepless nights, she finally broke down and called in a professional who she was convinced would rip her off.
    The mechanic arrived and immediately went down to the basement. The woman stayed at the top of the stairs, suspiciously listening to what transpired below. After about 3 minutes of surveying the situation, the mechanic pulled out a hammer, and struck the furnace in 3 locations. The noise immediately stopped. He climbed the stairs and before leaving, handed the homeowner a bill which read:
    Fixing furnace: $75.
    “$75?”, she bitched, “you were only here for 5 minutes and just hit the furnace 3 times with a hammer”.
    The mechanic sighed, took the bill from her and re-wrote it. The new one read:
    Hitting furnace with hammer: $3.00
    Knowing where to hit it: $72.00[/quote]

    Wow! Great work, Leon.

    Being a professional educator with alot of training to my credit, I can attest to that comment.

    Just yesterday, I spoke to a friend who is in the insurance world and had grown tired of it. He expressesd aninterest in teaching, because of the a. summers off, b. benefits, and c.getting out by 3:00.

    Thankfully, in ten years of teaching, I haven’t come across many colleagues who share the same motivations for choosing the career they did.

    On a similar note, I use photoshop and work on many DIY projects, both uniform and household.
    By no means, do I have the expertise of a professional designer of tradesman. Is my goal, the devaluation of their learned crafts, not at all.

  • Billy | November 4, 2009 at 1:14 pm |

    Regarding the uni design contests as devaluing the graphics field, I don’t see a problem. As a professional designer I realize there a many people that think they can do it just as good as a professional. Just the same way I sometimes feel as a sports fan when I think I could coach better than some professional coaches. There’s certain professions, especially in the creative world, that all of us think we can improve on. There’s no set rules on creativity, so I definitely don’t have a problem with “non-professionals” dabbling in it. I’m very confident in my talent and don’t worry about the validity of my work because others are trying it. If I’m not good enough with my education and experience to stay at the top of the field, then I don’t deserve to make the money I’m asking for. It’s called free enterprise.

    How do you think I became a professional designer? I started doing it for free as a young man and realized I had a talent.

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 1:15 pm |

    [quote comment=”358137″]By no means, do I have the expertise of a professional designer of tradesman.[/quote]

    i’ll vouch for that

  • Jim Walaitis | November 4, 2009 at 1:18 pm |

    [quote comment=”358000″]Devaluing the profession is a tough issue. I am a designer. I have a Bachelor’s Degree in Graphic Design, I have over 15 years professional experience, plus I am always training myself on updated software, and reading thoughts and processes on others in the field.

    I do think that many design contests and sites like “logo for $100” etc. are an insult to those who do this for a living.

    Change the profession. What if you had a contest to design a home, or install electrical wiring? Wouldn’t architects and contractors say that you’re undercutting their expertise and industry?

    It’s hard to take a stand without sounding elitist. It is hard to put a price on work done in a field that values form over function. And if you can find a quicker solution to your problem without costing a lot, so be it. But remember…the quickest and cheapest solution is not always the best one.[/quote]

    Sounds like a statement made by a man who might have once had to drop a deuce near a poison ivy patch.

  • Nick | November 4, 2009 at 1:20 pm |

    [quote comment=”358071″]Wait, is that article about Georgia Tech correct? The visiting team actually has to allow the home team to wear white? It’s not the home team gets to choose, like in the NFL? The color-on-color thing was bad, but this is just ridiculous. How does LSU get away with wearing white at home all the time? Wouldn’t you think some SEC rival with a douchebag coach (I’m looking at Alabama) would make them wear purple just for the hell of it?[/quote]

    It does actually happen once in awhile.

    The NCAA rule is that the Home team wears dark jerseys, the Road team must wear White jerseys, and if the Home team wants to wear White, it must have permission from the Road team to do so.
    This was a “compromise” reached by the NCAA in deciding to give home teams a “window” in which to wear White jerseys at home, after years of not allowing it.

    This rule change was aggitated in large part by then-new LSU Coach Gerry DiNardo, who made a big deal about wearing White jerseys at home to return to the traditional look of LSU’s Glory Years.

    Most Road teams allow the Home team to wear White if they want to, as they usually favor wearing their dark “Home” jerseys whenever they can, or they simply honpr the home teams request.

    But once in awhile there are exceptions. Vandy was pissed at Gerry diNardo for leaving to go to LSU. When LSU asked to wear White at home, Vandy refused to give permission and forced LSU to wear dark jerseys at home. DiNardo did not like Purple, and created a Canary Gold jerseys designed to resemble the NCAA Baseball Champ’s jerseys. The jerseys had markedly unreadable White numerals on the Canary Gold jerseys.

    Florida’ Steve Spurrier griped aloud about LSU wanting to wear White at home, but he allowed it with the caveat that LSU allow the Gators to wear White at home when LSU visited Florida the next year, which again had DiNardo outfit the LSU Tigers in Canary Yellow jerseys, this time with more readable Purple numerals.

    So, it is not unheard of for visiting teams to be hardcases and force the home team to wear White jerseys.

  • Nick | November 4, 2009 at 1:24 pm |

    [quote comment=”358079″][quote comment=”358061″]

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]

    Drew actually wore gold pants for the majority of his time at Purdue, it was pretty rare for the Boilers to go black at home or all-black until Drew was gone. I certainly associate that much more with Kyle “dammit Kyle” Orton than I do with Drew.[/quote]

    Thank Heavens !!!!

  • thats what she | November 4, 2009 at 1:25 pm |

    Just wanted to screw around with the “new” poster i.d. process.

    leon

  • Nick | November 4, 2009 at 1:32 pm |

    [quote comment=”358067″][quote comment=”358061″]I believe that the Saints wearing BLACK LEOTARD PANTS during their Monday Night Game vs. Atlanta is such an abomination that the grievance should be discussed for at least TWO DAYS.

    A lifelong Saints fan and game attendee, I truly believed that the Saints undefeated start, wearing Gold pants for all six wins, would keep the BLACK LEOTARDS in the closet – at least until they lost. But nooooooooooo, they just had to break them out for national TV. HORRID.

    The Saints, having worn Gold pants for all six regular season games, as well as all four preseason games, game me the false sense of feeling that the team’s decision-makers (Who in the hell decides which teams wear what they wear? To me, that is a tremendous topic for UW!!!! Particularly how trhe decision makers may vary from team-to-team) had matured and gotten over their trendy, childish gutter fetish with the Black pants.

    Apparently not.

    Other than family conflicts, taxes, health and work, the Saints Black leotard pants are the worst thing on my mind.

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]

    I was kind of expecting the Saints to maybe change things up so they didn’t get sucked into being superstitious. Y’know, better to believe “We’ll win based on how we play, not what what we wear”?

    Not saying I liked the look Monday night, but there might have been some good sense behind the apparent madness.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    I get your point, but I prefer a team to have a pretty traditional template, with detail that evolve over time, but still, a traditional template.

    That way, when the team wins big, they do so with a tradition that honors all that have come before them, and creates a linear attachment through the years. I believe that a reasonably consistent uniform does that.

    The Saints traditional template is Gold helmet/Gold Pants, White or Black jersey.

    When it is messed with, it usually goes bad.
    The current deviation is the WORST ever.

    Do not get me wrong, I dig many alternate jerseys and I for one LOVE throwback games and unis, but your team should have a reasonably consistent template.

    GOOD EXAMPLE:

    I shudder that Baylor, that had a Gold helmet/Green jersey/White pants uni for most of 60 years – you could recognize it from the Space Shuttle – has now gone “Oregon” on us with the mix-n-match uni carnival that kills all tradition and connection to anything other than the “newly arrived” racks at a replica jersey store.

  • Tom Nankival | November 4, 2009 at 1:32 pm |

    “The next time a business ‘doesn’t get it’ when you work to articulate the value of graphic design, realize you perpetuated that lack of appreciation for an art form.”

    Sorry Scott. I didn’t real;ize how much this depreciates your art. From now on I’ll decline invitations to sing at weddings in favor of Josh Groban….

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 1:34 pm |

    Is this a possible Ohio State alternate jersey to be used with a white helmet?

    http://twitpic.com/o...

  • The Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 1:40 pm |

    [quote comment=”358148″]Is this a possible Ohio State alternate jersey to be used with a white helmet?

    http://twitpic.com/o...

    Why in the hell would they wear a white helmet with that?

    I don’t mind a black outline on the numbers. The helmet’s had black trim on it for years… but white helmet? WTF.

  • chance michaels | November 4, 2009 at 1:42 pm |

    [quote comment=”358059″][quote comment=”358048″][quote comment=”358047″][quote comment=”358044″]What’s even more annoying it that oftentimes the uniforms for major college programs are designed by…

    the football coach.

    Chew on THAT reality for a while and see how it factors in here. LOL

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Or uniforms for pro sports teams *coughNHLcough* are designed by a GM, sample uniform templates and a pack of crayons.[/quote]

    You forgot to throw Reebok in that mix. Can’t forget about being 8% faster because of the material used… meaning everyone has to change their uniform design.

    Jackasses.[/quote]

    Reebok didn’t design the uniforms. They just changed the cut. Teams could use most any design with it- Dallas and Colorado were the only two that really couldn’t keep their design if they didn’t want to.

    Uniform design falls on the teams. Reebok didn’t kill the stripes on the leafs uniform, the leafs did. Other teams kept them with no issues (well, other then the rounded hem).

    Gms and packs of crayons. They weren’t forced to use those templates, a good number of teams didn’t.[/quote]
    Good point. The teams bear responsibility.

    According to Reebok’s public statements, the Avs could have kept their mountain hemline, but elected not to.

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 1:43 pm |

    [quote comment=”358149″][quote comment=”358148″]Is this a possible Ohio State alternate jersey to be used with a white helmet?

    http://twitpic.com/o...

    Why in the hell would they wear a white helmet with that?

    I don’t mind a black outline on the numbers. The helmet’s had black trim on it for years… but white helmet? WTF.[/quote]

    A few years ago I bought a gray jersey with red numbers. It is sharp. I prefer it over this possible jersey. And white helmet? How would the Buckeye leaves look on that?

    And the Buckeyes have not needed a gimmick to beat Michigan lately.

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 1:45 pm |

    Again this is nothing but rumor about Ohio State so who knows

  • The Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 1:46 pm |

    [quote comment=”358151″][quote comment=”358149″][quote comment=”358148″]Is this a possible Ohio State alternate jersey to be used with a white helmet?

    http://twitpic.com/o...

    Why in the hell would they wear a white helmet with that?

    I don’t mind a black outline on the numbers. The helmet’s had black trim on it for years… but white helmet? WTF.[/quote]

    A few years ago I bought a gray jersey with red numbers. It is sharp. I prefer it over this possible jersey. And white helmet? How would the Buckeye leaves look on that?

    And the Buckeyes have not needed a gimmick to beat Michigan lately.[/quote]

    Not to mention the metric ton of Beat Michigan and The Game and other assorted rivalry shirts on sale here in Columbus with the silver helmet on them.

    A silver jersey is great. A white helmet is stupid.

  • Randall | November 4, 2009 at 1:46 pm |

    Am I the only one who’s noticed that on one of those Infojocks posters, the Miami Dolphins are identified as “fish”?

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 1:48 pm |

    Here’s an important note that we are missing about submissions to contests like these:

    (albeit in a much abbreviated form):

    “All submissions become the sole property of (name a company), which reserves the right to hold, reject and/or edit submissions without notice and without limitation in perpetuity.”

    Meaning that they are looking to getting around paying ANYTHING to anyone who designs a concept, and that could have a serious trickle down effect…

    Yes it cost saving in many ways, but we aren’t looking at the bigger picture:

    If someone were to plagiarize Paul, even with a few edits…it’s still is plagiarism…Paul is the original author.

    Apply that to graphic/video design and please tell me what the difference would be…

  • Rob | November 4, 2009 at 1:49 pm |

    can we disconnect the designy talk from the sport uniforms talk. i come here NOT to read that. *sigh*

    but for sake of argument, this is a H.S. baseball team. if this was the atlanta braves and not the clarksville high school wildcats i could understanding the idea devaluing the process. BUT, its not.

    as I said, its a high school. they have no money. i believe that means they are a public non-for-profit. that means any work “your giving away” is not being given away. it is becoming a charitable donation. charge your rate to the school. say you donated your work to a great cause. get a letter with your value declared on it and the institution’s tax ID. write-off equals less tax and happiness.

    ok…back to the sports duds talk!

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 1:49 pm |

    [quote comment=”358146″][quote comment=”358067″][quote comment=”358061″]I believe that the Saints wearing BLACK LEOTARD PANTS during their Monday Night Game vs. Atlanta is such an abomination that the grievance should be discussed for at least TWO DAYS.

    A lifelong Saints fan and game attendee, I truly believed that the Saints undefeated start, wearing Gold pants for all six wins, would keep the BLACK LEOTARDS in the closet – at least until they lost. But nooooooooooo, they just had to break them out for national TV. HORRID.

    The Saints, having worn Gold pants for all six regular season games, as well as all four preseason games, game me the false sense of feeling that the team’s decision-makers (Who in the hell decides which teams wear what they wear? To me, that is a tremendous topic for UW!!!! Particularly how trhe decision makers may vary from team-to-team) had matured and gotten over their trendy, childish gutter fetish with the Black pants.

    Apparently not.

    Other than family conflicts, taxes, health and work, the Saints Black leotard pants are the worst thing on my mind.

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]

    I was kind of expecting the Saints to maybe change things up so they didn’t get sucked into being superstitious. Y’know, better to believe “We’ll win based on how we play, not what what we wear”?

    Not saying I liked the look Monday night, but there might have been some good sense behind the apparent madness.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    I get your point, but I prefer a team to have a pretty traditional template, with detail that evolve over time, but still, a traditional template.

    That way, when the team wins big, they do so with a tradition that honors all that have come before them, and creates a linear attachment through the years. I believe that a reasonably consistent uniform does that.

    The Saints traditional template is Gold helmet/Gold Pants, White or Black jersey.

    When it is messed with, it usually goes bad.
    The current deviation is the WORST ever.

    Do not get me wrong, I dig many alternate jerseys and I for one LOVE throwback games and unis, but your team should have a reasonably consistent template.

    GOOD EXAMPLE:

    I shudder that Baylor, that had a Gold helmet/Green jersey/White pants uni for most of 60 years – you could recognize it from the Space Shuttle – has now gone “Oregon” on us with the mix-n-match uni carnival that kills all tradition and connection to anything other than the “newly arrived” racks at a replica jersey store.[/quote]

    I think we’re harmonizing, not singing different songs.
    I said only that I understood possibly WHY the change Monday night.
    Now, if the Saints wore gold pants home and road and didn’t HAVE any other pants, it wouldn’t be an issue at all.
    Hard to get caught up in uni superstitions if you have one home and one road and that’s what you wear.
    I’m convinced that maybe, just maybe, one small part of the Colts’ continued success, for example, is they don’t screw around with B.S. like different combinations. Don’t add any unnecessary self-created crap to get caught up in. This is our white set. This is our blue set. Now let’s focus on football.

    —Ricko

  • C Ward | November 4, 2009 at 1:49 pm |

    Today’s discussion reminds me of a saying…

    “Remember: amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.”

  • Ry Co 40 | November 4, 2009 at 1:57 pm |

    [quote comment=”358132″][quote comment=”358120″]Paul,

    Reading your latest blog about Mr. Misner’s comments about logo design contests and the devaluing of the graphic design profession and the fall of capitalism as we know it (alright, that last part was made up and I am now taking my tongue out of my cheek).

    He is implying of course that free design work by “amateurs” are doing a disservice to the graphic community at large because they lack the skills and training to create work that design firms charge top dollar for, therefore cheapening the product and lowering the bar for design standards (i.e. see Buffalo Bills – no wait, that was professionally done — no amateur could achieve that).

    He need not worry, there are thousands of professional graphic designers and design firms who have all the training that art schools can muster, all the experience one could rely on and still produce lousy design work all on their own. The reason business “doesn’t get it” most often stems from a failure of the designer to execute the design goals of the project. Professional design work is a collaboration between the client and the designer, that is by definition, amateurs working with professionals to satisfy a design need. Since the “amateurs” are paying for the work, they tend to have the final say and this is where the devaluation of the profession occurs.

    I offer this opinion based on over 30 years of agency work, mostly with companies that we know and love and sometimes hate for their output. I do not mean to demean Mr. Misner’s comments about “free” work but I feel the blame should be put on the people that have earned it (the Professionals), only by accepting that charge can we then raise the bar on producing quality work that is memorable, timeless and popular.

    As for your uni-contests for the masses of regular Joes (small schools who cannot afford designers), I think it is a very good thing to put designers who have a passion for it (albeit some, with limited skills but good ideas) with people who have a need for good design. In the design game one only gets better with practice and these are great practice environments because everyone gets something out of the experience, except pros, who must be paid and would not take the job for that reason alone.

    When I do a gig for gratis I apply the same processes I would for a fortune 500 company, but with a twist. I also offer them a way to make money based on the designs (i.e. t-shirt designs, cap sales and such…) so that they can raise capitol on their own to one day be able to pay for future design work. You have to remind your clients that establishing a logo (branding) does not explode from a designers mind onto the world like a lightning bolt, (unless you are Todd Radom, one of the best in the business) but evolves based on what the client wants and what the designer perceives they need.

    Lastly, I offer this for the “amateurs” who have a passion for design. The man I consider the best graphic artist this country ever produced, Paul Rand had less than one year of “art school” training. At Marvel comics, (at least when I was there last millennium) all of the great artists there had NO formal art training at all, zip, nada. How is this possible?

    They succeeded because they loved the work they were doing and pushed themselves to get better by offering their services to any group for any price, even gratis… because in the course of time all that free work paid off a thousand fold by the constant practice of their craft, it gave them an edge in their chosen fields of design and paved the way to their success.

    Larry Torrez
    Professional Artist
    and proud Uni-Watch card carrying member[/quote]

    Beautifully said, Larry![/quote]

    i second that, powers!

  • Scott | November 4, 2009 at 1:57 pm |

    [quote comment=”357996″]So Scott, you are not the only “pro” out there. And if our work is so much better, it should stand out above the rest. And if you don’t want to participate… that’s fine. But lets be honest, some great designs have come from the hands of people who have just as good of a design eye as you and I, and just chose to feed their family in another line of work. Be glad they have these kind of opportunities to flex their design muscle. We have a fun job. Appreciate that others think so too.[/quote]

    I’m late to this conversation, but this is a GREAT response. I share the profession and the perspective.

  • psychobill | November 4, 2009 at 1:58 pm |

    [quote comment=”357984″]The Blackhawks lockers have a black-and-white rendition of Tommy Hawk, and the B&W logo really makes the facial features stand out, to a point where the war paint looks like letters. Is this a hidden signature from when the logo was redesigned in 1964? Or does it somehow say Tommy Hawk?”

    That is NOT Tommy Hawk. That is Chief Black Hawk.

    This is Tommy Hawk:

    http://blackhawks.nh...
    . . . and this is Tom E. Hawk of the Charelston, I mean Johnstown Chiefs:
    http://www.johnstown...

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 1:59 pm |

    re: Silver jersey and, possibly, white helmet for TOSU (and other team exhibiting such insightful marketing ploys)…

    “Well, see, the PLAYERS get bored, and the FANS get bored, and we just don’t know WHAT to do to keep them interested.”

    —Rick

  • Traxel | November 4, 2009 at 2:06 pm |

    Wow! I am not going to be able to get through all these comments until tonight but here is my first thought. Tom V, RespectCondor, and many others, wonderful points. I’m really liking hearing more about everyone, what they do for a living, their backgrounds, opinions. I’m also a licensed architect and am proud to be hearing all the impressive thoughts from many others in design businesses. Thank you Scott for creating this situation. Who’d a thunk it. I’ll check back in during the game tonight!

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 2:20 pm |

    Cool, playing Madden for hours can let you rat out on lots of stuff….

    (from Sphere.com today)

    “The latest Army statistics show a stunning 70 percent of military-age youth are ineligible to join the military because they are overweight, can’t pass entrance exams, have dropped out of high school or had run-ins with the law.

    “So many young people between the prime recruiting ages of 17 and 24 cannot meet minimum standards that a group of retired military leaders is calling for more investment in early childhood education to combat the insidious effects of junk food and inadequate education.”

    Guys in my generation had to shoot off a toe while duck hunting in their dorm rooms. But, hey, ths works for you…pass the Nutter Butters, right?

    —Ricko

  • Nick J | November 4, 2009 at 2:21 pm |

    This took me forever to read through all the comments. I’m an avid Uniwatcher, but I’ve never really looked through the comments before.

    I went to school for design, and have worked in the industry for about 5 years now.

    Going to school and receiving a degree doesn’t make someone any better than someone designing day in, day out for years. In fact, I know many people who have design degrees that I would NEVER hire. Awful work.

    So maybe the case is that these so-called “professionals” have nothing that makes them stand out. Maybe their so-called “creativity” is lacking to the point that it doesn’t matter what they do, they will never get a job doing what they love. Is that the fault of non-vocational designers? No.

    People have risen up to be great artists throughout history with little or no formal training. Hell, just go to any music store and look at the albums. Many of those bands are just passionate about music.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that every business should try to get their work done for free because their nephew took a word processing class at the local community college and thinks he is a graphics artist. My point is that not everyone needs or wants to go to college for a degree. Some people have natural talent, and that’s good enough for them.

    As long as we are a free market, there will ALWAYS be someone willing to undercut you. You need to make sure that your work stands above the rest and is worth what you say it is. Talk is cheap, and saying you are worth X doesn’t mean anything unless you can prove it.

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 2:25 pm |

    Just heard another rumor on 97.1 The Fan in Columbus that it is supposed to be a throwback game vs Michigan not that alternate pic game?

    Supposedly from late 1940’s Now that I would be cool with

  • Ben Jye | November 4, 2009 at 2:31 pm |

    I work as a golf professional at a resort in the southeast. The course where I worked for two years also had a golf teaching center that shared a driving range facility. The lead teaching pro was very territorial about who gave golf lessons. One summer, I hired a cart attendant that was an accomplished amateur golfer. He became friends with several of the members, and one day one of the members casually asked him to watch him hit a few balls. He did so, and then the cart guy offered him a few pointers and then went on about his business. The entire exchange lasted maybe fifteen minutes. There was no money exchanged. The lead teaching pro saw this and approached me with a “you need to tell your cart guys not to give lessons because that’s my job” type argument. I explained to him that the member asked him for advice, not the other way around, to which he replied that if a member asked for golf advice, the cart guy should direct him to the learning center, where he could get instruction from a professional. I told him that the instruction he got from the cart guy might be just as good as the instruction he would get from a professional. He responded by saying there was no way the quality of instruction he was getting from a cart guy would be as good as instruction coming from a golf professional. My response was that it was his job as the golf professional to make the members see the value and benefit of getting instruction from a professional. If he couldn’t do that and was worried about an “untrained” cart guy taking his money then maybe he was in the wrong business. I’ve been a golf pro for 5 years and have no problem with any of my members seeking out any of my staff for help, advice, etc. My wife is also a graphic designer, so I at least “get” what he’s trying to say. But she has said herself that it’s her job to sell herself to her clients and show them the quality of work they will get if they hire her. If she’s unable to do so, then the only person she has to blame is herself.

  • Tom Farley | November 4, 2009 at 2:32 pm |

    Thought-provoking discussion today.

    RS Rogers, I like the way you slid the Jebediah Springfield reference in there.

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 2:40 pm |

    [quote comment=”358168″]Thought-provoking discussion today.

    RS Rogers, I like the way you slid the Jebediah Springfield reference in there.[/quote]
    Indeed. It was a perfectly cromulent comment.

  • mike 2 | November 4, 2009 at 2:44 pm |

    I’m a lawyer.

    We have to compete with do-it-yourself will kits, paralegals, outsourcing to India, people who got their law degree on Wikipedia, and all sorts of competition.

    In my experience, there’s 2 ways I can compete:

    1. Hide behind phrases like “I have more education” and “noone can do what we do”, or perhaps using a licensing body to restrict competition

    2. be better at what I do, better customer service, more responsive, better quality, whatever

    IMHO option #1 is attractive in the short term but is unsustainable. If my business model relies on the existence of professional credentials and restrictions and putting a wall around the practice, in the long term I’m doomed.

  • Robert R. | November 4, 2009 at 2:56 pm |

    Decent gallary of some goalie masks, but what gets me is Osgood’s old school mask.

    http://sports.espn.g...

  • BuckeyeMark | November 4, 2009 at 3:09 pm |

    [quote comment=”358158″]Today’s discussion reminds me of a saying…

    “Remember: amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.”[/quote]

    that’s a marvelous quote and kind of funny… but really really not true. the guy who built the ark got blueprints from a fabulous professional Designer with a long resume of great work. see Genesis 1.

  • AP | November 4, 2009 at 3:09 pm |

    What some people are missing in this discussion is an understanding of where value comes from. We (mostly) have a capitalistic, free market system. That means that value is set by the market. Designers don’t get to set value. Companies don’t get to set value. Unions don’t get to set value. The market sets value.

    Thus, if the product that Scott produces is truly valuable, he has absolutely no reason to worry. People will naturally see the value of what he does and pay him for it. If, however, there is no value in what he does (or at least not as much as he thinks there should be), then he’s in trouble. But that doesn’t give him the right to complain; it means he’d better find a way to produce something that’s more valuable.

  • Santino | November 4, 2009 at 3:12 pm |

    Okay, just my 98 cents short of a dollar on the whole graphic designer issue (not that anybody cares, but…)

    I have been doing graphic design work for about 10 years now, and I can totally understand what the reader who posted the comment a few days ago was saying about people and organizations looking for freebies devaluing the industry at large, but, on the other side of the coin…most of the designers that I know (myself included) work freelance. This means that we need to constantly keep our portfolios up-to-date. An opportunity like this might not provide us with money, but it does, indeed provide us with experience which helps us build our overall resume and in turn land a paying gig (hopefully).

    In addition to computer artwork, I also paint, and if you think that graphic design work is tough, just try selling a painting sometime (or even just getting it into a bloody gallery). I dont really keep track of such things, but I’d wager that I’ve given away twice as many paintings as I’ve actually sold. Why? Because it provides an opportunity to walk into a building, or somebody’s home and see your work on the wall someplace other than in just my studio.

    For what it’s worth, the way I see it, most schools are struggling right now, and they dont really have the dough to pay a designer what they’re worth. If a designer is able to make a decent living with their art, then they are lucky (I know I still have to work part time at a “real” job in order to make ends meet). But many of us who have to still compete just to get our work out there will go for an opportunity which affords us a chance to get a little visibility at the expense of a paycheck.

    Ask any artist in any discipline, it’s tough to get your name out there; sometimes noteriety is better than a paycheck (although I totally understand that you can’t pay your rent with artistic cache, but that’s topic for another discussion) so I suppose the way that I see it (right or wrong) is that nobody is forcing you to participate, and a high school looking to cut costs while probably working on a shoestring budget is not going to have any effect on the “established” artists in the industry either way, but it may help you get one step closer to becomming “established” yourself…

  • Bernard | November 4, 2009 at 3:13 pm |

    [quote comment=”358164″]Cool, playing Madden for hours can let you rat out on lots of stuff….

    (from Sphere.com today)

    “The latest Army statistics show a stunning 70 percent of military-age youth are ineligible to join the military because they are overweight, can’t pass entrance exams, have dropped out of high school or had run-ins with the law.

    “So many young people between the prime recruiting ages of 17 and 24 cannot meet minimum standards that a group of retired military leaders is calling for more investment in early childhood education to combat the insidious effects of junk food and inadequate education.”

    Guys in my generation had to shoot off a toe while duck hunting in their dorm rooms. But, hey, ths works for you…pass the Nutter Butters, right?

    —Ricko[/quote]

    It’s gotta beat shooting off a toe…

  • shenk | November 4, 2009 at 3:18 pm |

    Nothing devalues professional design more than bad design done by professionals. Take the Buffalo Sabres as a prime example. Sure, the team’s owners and the NHL top brass have “crayon on their hands” but when you unleash something so pitiful as the Slugalo on the public, then don’t be surprised that some amateurs are going to think “I can do better.”

    I spent an enjoyable afternoon looking at this talented chap’s efforts.

    http://nhllogos.blog...

    Some are great, some are good and some, IMO, aren’t so hot. Nothing is as abhorrent as that Sabre Slug though and it’s that fact that devalues those officially in the game

    Let’s not forget that the professional has a much more technical list of deliverables to a client. He can’t just submit a .jpg and say “pay me”. You need vector logos, copyright checks and making damn sure your rebranding doesn’t infringe on anything on Earth!

    With that in mind, I don’t think the amateur armed with a copy of Paint Shop Pro is going to be undercutting any pro when a franchise is looking for a fresh look.

  • Kerry P | November 4, 2009 at 3:22 pm |

    [quote comment=”358061″]I believe that the Saints wearing BLACK LEOTARD PANTS during their Monday Night Game vs. Atlanta is such an abomination that the grievance should be discussed for at least TWO DAYS.

    A lifelong Saints fan and game attendee, I truly believed that the Saints undefeated start, wearing Gold pants for all six wins, would keep the BLACK LEOTARDS in the closet – at least until they lost. But nooooooooooo, they just had to break them out for national TV. HORRID.

    The Saints, having worn Gold pants for all six regular season games, as well as all four preseason games, game me the false sense of feeling that the team’s decision-makers (Who in the hell decides which teams wear what they wear? To me, that is a tremendous topic for UW!!!! Particularly how trhe decision makers may vary from team-to-team) had matured and gotten over their trendy, childish gutter fetish with the Black pants.

    Apparently not.

    Other than family conflicts, taxes, health and work, the Saints Black leotard pants are the worst thing on my mind.

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]
    Amen, man. Preach on brother. At least they won…but I HATE those black pants. Give me the good ol golds any day of the week.

  • peter | November 4, 2009 at 3:34 pm |

    “although I totally understand that you can’t pay your rent with artistic cache, but that’s topic for another discussion”

    [light hearted sarcasm] I tried that once with my landlord…I gave her a show, now I work for her!

    I guess my end of the spectrum of protecting your images is more skewered towards protecting all my companies products (like most production companies)…but in the end, WATCH MY SHOWS!! :)

  • Kerry P | November 4, 2009 at 3:39 pm |

    [quote comment=”358143″][quote comment=”358071″]Wait, is that article about Georgia Tech correct? The visiting team actually has to allow the home team to wear white? It’s not the home team gets to choose, like in the NFL? The color-on-color thing was bad, but this is just ridiculous. How does LSU get away with wearing white at home all the time? Wouldn’t you think some SEC rival with a douchebag coach (I’m looking at Alabama) would make them wear purple just for the hell of it?[/quote]

    It does actually happen once in awhile.

    The NCAA rule is that the Home team wears dark jerseys, the Road team must wear White jerseys, and if the Home team wants to wear White, it must have permission from the Road team to do so.
    This was a “compromise” reached by the NCAA in deciding to give home teams a “window” in which to wear White jerseys at home, after years of not allowing it.

    This rule change was aggitated in large part by then-new LSU Coach Gerry DiNardo, who made a big deal about wearing White jerseys at home to return to the traditional look of LSU’s Glory Years.

    Most Road teams allow the Home team to wear White if they want to, as they usually favor wearing their dark “Home” jerseys whenever they can, or they simply honpr the home teams request.

    But once in awhile there are exceptions. Vandy was pissed at Gerry diNardo for leaving to go to LSU. When LSU asked to wear White at home, Vandy refused to give permission and forced LSU to wear dark jerseys at home. DiNardo did not like Purple, and created a Canary Gold jerseys designed to resemble the NCAA Baseball Champ’s jerseys. The jerseys had markedly unreadable White numerals on the Canary Gold jerseys.

    Florida’ Steve Spurrier griped aloud about LSU wanting to wear White at home, but he allowed it with the caveat that LSU allow the Gators to wear White at home when LSU visited Florida the next year, which again had DiNardo outfit the LSU Tigers in Canary Yellow jerseys, this time with more readable Purple numerals.

    So, it is not unheard of for visiting teams to be hardcases and force the home team to wear White jerseys.[/quote]
    LSU vs Vandy

    I can’t find an LSU/Florida picture though.

  • Chris | November 4, 2009 at 3:50 pm |

    [quote comment=”358154″]Am I the only one who’s noticed that on one of those Infojocks posters, the Miami Dolphins are identified as “fish”?[/quote]
    Maybe they use the same logic some Catholics use, in that if it sprang from the water, it’s fish. Some use that belief to eat fowl during Lent.

  • Jerry | November 4, 2009 at 3:58 pm |

    Another GD commenting on the design contest thing. I just graduated from school and finding work is rough, so little contests like these are great to add pieces to your portfolio and what not. At the same time giving my time and effort away “goodies” (the same thing my grandparents would give me for helping with yard work) cheapens the idea of myself spending 5 years at school and accumulating all the debt I have now. And yes many people do come up with decent ideas without a degree, but there is also a fair number of people who just rip off a logo that someone else created and change the colors. Therefor cheapening what every professional graphic designer has worked hard for.

  • tobioliva | November 4, 2009 at 4:10 pm |

    As a university-level student in a design program, we get approached and see our share of people and/or organizations offering you to do their logos, brand identity, website, etc. In some cases it is worth it do work for a reduced amount or even pro-bono. There are times, however, where we cringe when a start up company (that has or should have the capital to invest in good design) asks for the whole shebang for a paltry amount or nothing at all.

    A designer with common sense should be able to see if an offer is exploitative or not. It is up to the designer consider what is being asked of them, the work/time they’re willing to put in and what they might get in return – both monetarily and in experience.

    For me, in the case of Clarksville High School, it would depend on the state of the program and the school. I would have to ask questions such as “is it a public or private school”, “is the school investing enough in it’s own baseball program?”. Perhaps they can find someone local with a good eye, that way if the program can’t exactly afford a “good” price for a design it would be easier to come up with a benefit for the designer.

    Bottom line, this is a high school, not the New York Giants.

    Tobias Oliva
    University of Alberta – GO BEARS GO!
    BDes candidate
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

  • Hibbs | November 4, 2009 at 4:35 pm |

    I am a school teacher.
    Is the commenter’s claim comparable to someone home schooling their child? That’s not devaluing my profession. In fact, many of the children that I have met from that situation have joined regular schools. Their parents found it too difficult.
    Or…
    Does it more closely resemble a parent telling me how to do my job? That’s not devaluing. That’s belittling.

  • Kaptain K | November 4, 2009 at 4:49 pm |

    [quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    Old Polish proverb:
    “Under communism, man exploits man.
    Under capitalism, the reverse is true.”

  • Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 4:52 pm |

    http://cgi.ebay.com/...

    Either this picture is noted wrong, or there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with the Uniform Database. If that’s a 35 White Sox uniform, what’s with that huge dark area around the waist, and what is the deal with the dark rear pocket on the player in the background? Ted ain’t got a pocket of that color.

    Me thinks that is not a Chicago uniform.

    On the plus side….dig the socks.

  • Colin | November 4, 2009 at 4:58 pm |

    [quote comment=”358061″]I believe that the Saints wearing BLACK LEOTARD PANTS during their Monday Night Game vs. Atlanta is such an abomination that the grievance should be discussed for at least TWO DAYS.

    A lifelong Saints fan and game attendee, I truly believed that the Saints undefeated start, wearing Gold pants for all six wins, would keep the BLACK LEOTARDS in the closet – at least until they lost. But nooooooooooo, they just had to break them out for national TV. HORRID.

    The Saints, having worn Gold pants for all six regular season games, as well as all four preseason games, game me the false sense of feeling that the team’s decision-makers (Who in the hell decides which teams wear what they wear? To me, that is a tremendous topic for UW!!!! Particularly how trhe decision makers may vary from team-to-team) had matured and gotten over their trendy, childish gutter fetish with the Black pants.

    Apparently not.

    Other than family conflicts, taxes, health and work, the Saints Black leotard pants are the worst thing on my mind.

    I just wonder, could my favorite QB, Drew Brees, who I loved before he even made the pros and I truly love now that he is a Saint, be influencing the Saints to dress in the Black pants just like his college, Purdue? Man, I hope not.[/quote]
    Amen, death to unicolor fb uniforms. I know they wore gold helmets, but at least some of the players had necks to break up the solid color.

  • Bob | November 4, 2009 at 5:01 pm |

    As a uniform designer, I used to feel somewhat insulted when I would get fed homemade designs. The best comparison I can make is to that of a blogger. They generally aren’t trained journalists, but sometimes they can really make a point. The difference is, with a professional we have to be right on every time. I spend time speaking to my customer to get a feel for their likes and dislikes. If they hand me something that was “sketched on a napkin”, I’ll make an effort to bring life to it. If I feel it lacks the punch needed for a great design, I’ll politely sway the customer in another direction. More often than not, that homemade design is a copy of something that is already worn elsewhere. Almost every one of the designs submitted in the last “contest” was some hybrid of a Buffalo Sabres logo. The challenge is to create what was once quoted to Walt Disney, “just make something everyone will like.” I think the contest is a great idea, but I can assure you that the design will be handed to someone like myself to take it to the next level.

  • Pretty Boy Paulie | November 4, 2009 at 5:05 pm |

    [quote comment=”358174″]Okay, just my 98 cents short of a dollar on the whole graphic designer issue (not that anybody cares, but…)

    I have been doing graphic design work for about 10 years now, and I can totally understand what the reader who posted the comment a few days ago was saying about people and organizations looking for freebies devaluing the industry at large, but, on the other side of the coin…most of the designers that I know (myself included) work freelance. This means that we need to constantly keep our portfolios up-to-date. An opportunity like this might not provide us with money, but it does, indeed provide us with experience which helps us build our overall resume and in turn land a paying gig (hopefully).

    In addition to computer artwork, I also paint, and if you think that graphic design work is tough, just try selling a painting sometime (or even just getting it into a bloody gallery). I dont really keep track of such things, but I’d wager that I’ve given away twice as many paintings as I’ve actually sold. Why? Because it provides an opportunity to walk into a building, or somebody’s home and see your work on the wall someplace other than in just my studio.

    For what it’s worth, the way I see it, most schools are struggling right now, and they dont really have the dough to pay a designer what they’re worth. If a designer is able to make a decent living with their art, then they are lucky (I know I still have to work part time at a “real” job in order to make ends meet). But many of us who have to still compete just to get our work out there will go for an opportunity which affords us a chance to get a little visibility at the expense of a paycheck.

    Ask any artist in any discipline, it’s tough to get your name out there; sometimes noteriety is better than a paycheck (although I totally understand that you can’t pay your rent with artistic cache, but that’s topic for another discussion) so I suppose the way that I see it (right or wrong) is that nobody is forcing you to participate, and a high school looking to cut costs while probably working on a shoestring budget is not going to have any effect on the “established” artists in the industry either way, but it may help you get one step closer to becomming “established” yourself…[/quote]

    I couldn’t agree more, you damn near took the words outta my mouth. I didn’t take Scott’s words in a negative way, I understood where he was coming from. I like to design as a hobby and hopefully soon make a career out of it. My current level of skill I believe to be “amatuer” but I do enjoy doing every moment of it. If it isn’t in the cards for me to make a living off of it, just getting my work and name out there is definately a reward.

    Sometimes those who design for a hobby have more talent than those who are “licensed” to do so.

  • Colin | November 4, 2009 at 5:21 pm |

    [quote comment=”358004″]By the way, Paul and gang, thanks for getting the Twitter feed hopping. I was happy to see a post leading me here this morning.[/quote]
    I need to work on my peripheral vision and hand eye coordination, I’ve clicked on the the little birdie about 20 times.

  • Chris | November 4, 2009 at 5:37 pm |

    I think the bigger thing than that potential new Ohio State jersey is what looks like a Virginia Tech jersey peeking in from the corner of the pic. The maroon and orange stripes appear to dissolve into dots.

  • Billy Smith | November 4, 2009 at 5:46 pm |

    My turn for an inclusion of 2 cents. At this point we have like $83 worth of pennies, but hey, what’s another pair of li’l Lincolns??

    I am a “trained” graphic designer (the BFA on my studio wall says so anyways) and am now a high school art teacher I had design jobs for some time, still do with some freelance work, but made my way into a field where I am teaching students about how to create art. There are hundreds maybe thousands of designers out there trying to scratch their way into the business, both “trained professionals” with pieces of paper like mine, and folks sitting at home in pajamas clicking away at illustrator. Great pieces of art, and maybe my design snooty-ness is still there since I am insisting on the word art, can come from anywhere.

    My thought, from those of us with degrees, to our at-home designers, to my students, who’s to say where great works of art SHOULD come from? I see Scott’s point to a degree, but I have taught 14 year old kids with a better grasp on design and creating than so-called “professionals.” Paul said it above, its competition, “which is something no professional should resent or be afraid of.” This is easy for me to say of course, not being in a studio or agency, or even being recognized as a “professional graphic artist,” but I think the more art that’s out there, the more designers will have to strive and work harder. How could that be a bad thing?

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 5:48 pm |

    [quote comment=”358190″]I think the bigger thing than that potential new Ohio State jersey is what looks like a Virginia Tech jersey peeking in from the corner of the pic. The maroon and orange stripes appear to dissolve into dots.[/quote]

    nice catch!

    im guessing this is what those “sublimated” (or whatever word paul used) jerseys are going to look like

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 5:50 pm |

    [quote comment=”358185″ ]http://cgi.ebay.com/1935-Chicago-White-Sox-Pitcher-Theodore-Lyons_W0QQitemZ270479496296QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Sports_Memorabilia?hash=item3ef9d59468

    Either this picture is noted wrong, or there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with the Uniform Database. If that’s a 35 White Sox uniform, what’s with that huge dark area around the waist, and what is the deal with the dark rear pocket on the player in the background? Ted ain’t got a pocket of that color.

    Me thinks that is not a Chicago uniform.

    On the plus side….dig the socks.[/quote]
    I don’t have a solid explanation for the difference in pocket flaps (maybe one of them’s wearing pants that are left over from a previous season), but the DTTN graphic appears to be right on the money. Check out the belt tunnels on the road uni. They’re navy blue.

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 5:52 pm |

    sunofa…

    won’t let me hotlink?

    fine, i’ll host it myself

  • Moose | November 4, 2009 at 5:54 pm |

    I’m in agreement that although Scott’s argument is solid and articulated well, it’s elitist and borderline arrogant.

    If you love a profession, you pursue it, or at least dabble in it. I’m a mobile DJ and a drywall contractor. I started at the bottom of both.

    These contests here are not a threat to established professionals. Todd Radom isn’t pissed off, why should someone else be? Most of us sports uniform enthusiasts (or geeks) will never get the chance to see their product worn on the field, court, or ice. Let us have our fun, sourpuss. Lighten up a little.

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 6:04 pm |

    [quote comment=”358193″][quote comment=”358185″ ]http://cgi.ebay.com/1935-Chicago-White-Sox-Pitcher-Theodore-Lyons_W0QQitemZ270479496296QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Sports_Memorabilia?hash=item3ef9d59468

    Either this picture is noted wrong, or there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with the Uniform Database. If that’s a 35 White Sox uniform, what’s with that huge dark area around the waist, and what is the deal with the dark rear pocket on the player in the background? Ted ain’t got a pocket of that color.

    Me thinks that is not a Chicago uniform.

    On the plus side….dig the socks.[/quote]
    I don’t have a solid explanation for the difference in pocket flaps (maybe one of them’s wearing pants that are left over from a previous season), but the DTTN graphic appears to be right on the money. Check out the belt tunnels on the road uni. They’re navy blue.[/quote]
    …and, of course I linked the wrong image. That was the 1936 Sox uni.

    Here’s 1935. Same thing, though — the belt loops/tunnels are blue.

  • Robert | November 4, 2009 at 6:33 pm |

    [quote comment=”358194″]sunofa…

    won’t let me hotlink?

    fine, i’ll host it myself[/quote]

    Texas was rumored to be one of the teams with those. Pleeeeeeeeease nooooooooo! The Longhorns road whites are among my favorites in all of sport–and have remained pretty much unchanged for half a century now.

    No gimmicks needed when you look that good.

  • Zach | November 4, 2009 at 6:45 pm |

    Paul,

    I don’t know if this has been posted yet, but Iowa’s Basketball Uni’s Changed last year and it looks like they are adding a white uni compared to the gold and black ones they had last year

    http://gazetteonline...

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 7:39 pm |

    Hey, Powers! The New York Sentinels kicker is from Wagner.

    Sentinels homes, btw, are the only UFL uni I’ve seen that’s even close to worth a damn.

    —Ricko

  • SWZR | November 4, 2009 at 7:39 pm |

    As an Art Director, I understand Scott’s position on this AND Paul’s. They are both right in their own ways. The concept of design itself is still being debated to this day. And so is the realm of devaluing ones profession. As well they should remain open for debate!

    What I see unfolding in the design world is the open access to “similar” tools for design, without the artistic background, or the proper education in the art of professional design. But some people can become amazing self-taught artists to a certain extent. “Good” design is a little harder to learn merely by observation because there is method behind the madness. Organization of information, tied to experience in how to compile that information and design a comprehensive layout that makes that information easily absorbed and looking as good as possible. That takes a bit of effort and background knowledge of a great many things before you can even begin to get into the project at hand.

    You can learn how to use the tools, but not why you should or when. Just because you can add a drop shadow to anything you want doesn’t mean you should. Just because you like comic sans as a font, doesn’t mean that font is going to make your business card (or whatever) easy to read, nor will it prove a good font for garnering your business any respect from prospective clients. (comic sans is a terrible font, kerns horribly and even the leading is rough to work with, yuck…).

    So now the tools are available to more people, and boy do they have at it, and good for them but that doesn’t make them a pro. It’s one thing to make something look interesting or cool. But what about that deeper meaning, that intangible added quality that comes from truly understanding the subject matter far beneath the surface.

    Good design communicates the subject matter in a clear and concise way that requires more than just the ability to use a pen tool or a colored circle.

    But that’s not what we’re really talking about here is it? Isn’t this just a sports team logo? So what’s Scott’s beef?

    A few months ago I listened to a great conversation on NPR about an individual that had been arrested for making forgeries of hundreds if not thousands of very famous paintings. And it was an interesting point to make that if one cannot tell that it is a forgery does that make it more or less valuable than the original work of art? I mean, how amazing is it to be so good at your craft that you can actually accomplish that level of skill where you can recreate a Rembrandt or Titian painting and not even the most respected appraiser of fine arts could tell the difference between the forgery or the original when looked at side by side?

    That just blurs the line of how you value something. And this quest by everyone here to try to define one perspective or the other as being the right one is an exercise in futility, although it can be fun for some people just to debate for the sake of debate.

    I don’t mind contests like these. They have their own place and they let people have some fun. I don’t think contests like these devalue my profession, it’s actually the individuals understanding of design as their own personal perspective that pains people like Scott and I. Some people are appreciative and others aren’t. Some people simply suck at life and others don’t.

    Here’s a great video that should lighten the mood of this conversation for everyone. In my opinion it does provide non-professional designers a bit of an insiders perspective on what we have to deal with on a daily basis. People trying to tell us how to do our jobs is just something we have to learn to accept…

    http://www.youtube.c...

    It’s a must watch for anyone that’s got something to say about the topic on this thread.

    Enjoy,
    Seth

  • Marc | November 4, 2009 at 7:48 pm |

    I am the one that requested the article about having a uniform and logo design. While I understand Scott’s concerns and respect them, I reached out to this community, instead of paying a professional, because I thought it would be neat for the UW community to have the distinction of designing a uniform set, watching it go into production, and see it in play. But I understand how someone might feel this way.

    Either way, I would like to mention that the majority of coaches at the high school level let the local sporting goods store or company rep design the sets for them, so I don’t think I was taking a month’s profit away from anyone. I had even mentioned to Phil that I was more than willing to pay someone for their hard work, as opposed to just giving them some merchandise.

    Either way, I think our idea was a good one with good intentions and I can’t wait to see some of the great designs that people work hard to come up with.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 8:02 pm |

    [quote comment=”358201″]I am the one that requested the article about having a uniform and logo design. While I understand Scott’s concerns and respect them, I reached out to this community, instead of paying a professional, because I thought it would be neat for the UW community to have the distinction of designing a uniform set, watching it go into production, and see it in play. But I understand how someone might feel this way.

    Either way, I would like to mention that the majority of coaches at the high school level let the local sporting goods store or company rep design the sets for them, so I don’t think I was taking a month’s profit away from anyone. I had even mentioned to Phil that I was more than willing to pay someone for their hard work, as opposed to just giving them some merchandise.

    Either way, I think our idea was a good one with good intentions and I can’t wait to see some of the great designs that people work hard to come up with.[/quote]

    Exactly. Not like some lucrative high school baseball uni design gig is off the table.

    —Ricko

  • iLO | November 4, 2009 at 8:22 pm |

    [quote comment=”358176″]Nothing devalues professional design more than bad design done by professionals. Take the Buffalo Sabres as a prime example. Sure, the team’s owners and the NHL top brass have “crayon on their hands” but when you unleash something so pitiful as the Slugalo on the public, then don’t be surprised that some amateurs are going to think “I can do better.”

    I spent an enjoyable afternoon looking at this talented chap’s efforts.

    http://nhllogos.blog...

    Some are great, some are good and some, IMO, aren’t so hot. Nothing is as abhorrent as that Sabre Slug though and it’s that fact that devalues those officially in the game

    Let’s not forget that the professional has a much more technical list of deliverables to a client. He can’t just submit a .jpg and say “pay me”. You need vector logos, copyright checks and making damn sure your rebranding doesn’t infringe on anything on Earth!

    With that in mind, I don’t think the amateur armed with a copy of Paint Shop Pro is going to be undercutting any pro when a franchise is looking for a fresh look.[/quote]

    Ugh. Again, the thick border logos attack! Seems to be the cookie cutter choice of logo design. laterst….Florida Tuskers.

  • Mark | November 4, 2009 at 8:26 pm |

    for those following the Ohio State alternate uniforms rumors– this just out from their AD–

    A statement from Ohio State director of athletics Gene Smith:

    “During spring, 2009, Ohio State was invited by Nike to participate in its Rivalry uniform program with several other universities from around the nation. They offered us a chance to try a new uniform product featuring cutting-edge fabrics and technology; participation in the program also offered us a one-time opportunity to salute one of those great championship teams that have built the Ohio State football tradition.

    “Our coaches and players were excited to see the different elements Nike presented in the prototype designs and samples. The uniform elements are still in production, and we are extremely eager to see the finished product when it arrives.

    “For this special program, we chose to recognize the achievements of our undefeated 1954 national championship team, winning the Big Ten title outright before capturing a Rose Bowl victory. These great Buckeyes celebrated their 55th anniversary with us at the Minnesota game, and this is another way for us to pay homage to their stellar achievements.

    “Our fans will be able to get the first look at these unique uniforms on Sunday, Nov. 15, when we will share photos of the finished product on our website OhioStateBuckeyes.com. Fans can also take a look at the actual uniform up close that week in our official Team Shop in the Schottenstein Center. And our team will wear these custom designs when the Buckeyes take the field Nov. 21 up north in Ann Arbor.

    “Again, this is a one-time opportunity to honor a great championship team. We have no plans to make any changes to the traditional Buckeye uniform for the foreseeable future.”

  • Korch | November 4, 2009 at 8:30 pm |

    High top golf shoes???

    http://cgi.ebay.com/...

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 8:51 pm |

    [quote comment=”358205″]High top golf shoes???

    http://cgi.ebay.com/...

    Would look especially good with baggy, below-the-knee shorts, don’t you think?

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 8:58 pm |

    [quote comment=”358205″]High top golf shoes???

    http://cgi.ebay.com/...

    Would look especially good with baggy, below-the-knee shorts, huh.

    —Rick

  • Dan King | November 4, 2009 at 8:59 pm |

    i know i don’t have the talent to whip up some design and get paid for it. doesn’t mean i can’t try and then see what other people think. if they like it great, makes me feel good, if not, oh well.

    and as far as i can see, some people’s work is undervalued and others is overvalued. teacher’s sometimes are barely above welfare but drug reps make 6 figures.
    i just graduated with an aerospace engineering degree in may. the ‘going’ rate for entry level positions is around 40 grand. i’ll probably be making almost double what my mom does even though her teaching position is more important to most people.

    sorry for getting off topic there. i guess my arguement/comparison is this:
    people complain about immigrants taking jobs away from people born here. most of these jobs are seen as undersirable by americans (landscapers, field hands, trash men). so they’re not really taking away jobs that the people complaining want b/c they don’t pay well enough. so my point is; if you’re a designer and your firm had this contract and you found out how much you were getting paid for it, you’d laugh at it. so let someone willing to do it for however much they want take it. don’t make a big deal out of something you didn’t want anyway

  • PL4 | November 4, 2009 at 9:13 pm |

    A couple of things. First, I didn’t have the chance to read all the way through the comments, but, from what I saw, it was pretty pleasing to see how civil this debate was.

    I’m 100 percent with Paul here too. As a journalist, I’ve heard a lot of my colleagues first bemoan the internet (instead of trying to understand it) and then when that failed, working as hard as possible to discredit any blogger “because they’re not real journalists”. There are some things that you just don’t HAVE to go to school to do. Having proper training probably will make you better, but it’s not essential. Kudos all the way around for a great topic today.

  • Ricko | November 4, 2009 at 9:17 pm |

    [quote comment=”358209″]A couple of things. First, I didn’t have the chance to read all the way through the comments, but, from what I saw, it was pretty pleasing to see how civil this debate was.

    I’m 100 percent with Paul here too. As a journalist, I’ve heard a lot of my colleagues first bemoan the internet (instead of trying to understand it) and then when that failed, working as hard as possible to discredit any blogger “because they’re not real journalists”. There are some things that you just don’t HAVE to go to school to do. Having proper training probably will make you better, but it’s not essential. Kudos all the way around for a great topic today.[/quote]

    Not about school. About doing the job right. Just like anything, some do it well, some are hacks.

    Believe me, there are plenty of hacks among the print and TV corps, too.

    —Ricko

  • The Jeff | November 4, 2009 at 9:29 pm |

    [quote comment=”358164″]Cool, playing Madden for hours can let you rat out on lots of stuff….

    (from Sphere.com today)

    “The latest Army statistics show a stunning 70 percent of military-age youth are ineligible to join the military because they are overweight, can’t pass entrance exams, have dropped out of high school or had run-ins with the law.

    “So many young people between the prime recruiting ages of 17 and 24 cannot meet minimum standards that a group of retired military leaders is calling for more investment in early childhood education to combat the insidious effects of junk food and inadequate education.”

    Guys in my generation had to shoot off a toe while duck hunting in their dorm rooms. But, hey, ths works for you…pass the Nutter Butters, right?

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Maybe if we’d stop fighting wars for bad reasons and trying to play World Police, that wouldn’t be a problem. It’s not that hard to lose weight if you want to join. As for the entrance exam, I’d say those are intentional failures. That test is not hard in any way, assuming it hasn’t changed in the last decade.

    But that’s a discussion for another place I’m sure.

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 9:35 pm |

    [quote comment=”358204″]for those following the Ohio State alternate uniforms rumors– this just out from their AD–

    A statement from Ohio State director of athletics Gene Smith:

    “During spring, 2009, Ohio State was invited by Nike to participate in its Rivalry uniform program with several other universities from around the nation. They offered us a chance to try a new uniform product featuring cutting-edge fabrics and technology; participation in the program also offered us a one-time opportunity to salute one of those great championship teams that have built the Ohio State football tradition.

    “Our coaches and players were excited to see the different elements Nike presented in the prototype designs and samples. The uniform elements are still in production, and we are extremely eager to see the finished product when it arrives.

    “For this special program, we chose to recognize the achievements of our undefeated 1954 national championship team, winning the Big Ten title outright before capturing a Rose Bowl victory. These great Buckeyes celebrated their 55th anniversary with us at the Minnesota game, and this is another way for us to pay homage to their stellar achievements.

    “Our fans will be able to get the first look at these unique uniforms on Sunday, Nov. 15, when we will share photos of the finished product on our website OhioStateBuckeyes.com. Fans can also take a look at the actual uniform up close that week in our official Team Shop in the Schottenstein Center. And our team will wear these custom designs when the Buckeyes take the field Nov. 21 up north in Ann Arbor.

    “Again, this is a one-time opportunity to honor a great championship team. We have no plans to make any changes to the traditional Buckeye uniform for the foreseeable future.”[/quote]

    I too just heard this. The thing is in 1954 Ohio State wore the red or scarlet for most all of the season until the USC game. Then they wore the shoulder yoke cool pattern

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 9:38 pm |

    [quote comment=”358211″]As for the entrance exam, I’d say those are intentional failures. That test is not hard in any way, assuming it hasn’t changed in the last decade.[/quote]

    were you in the forces?

  • Mark | November 4, 2009 at 9:39 pm |

    [quote comment=”358212″][quote comment=”358204″]for those following the Ohio State alternate uniforms rumors– this just out from their AD–

    A statement from Ohio State director of athletics Gene Smith:

    “During spring, 2009, Ohio State was invited by Nike to participate in its Rivalry uniform program with several other universities from around the nation. They offered us a chance to try a new uniform product featuring cutting-edge fabrics and technology; participation in the program also offered us a one-time opportunity to salute one of those great championship teams that have built the Ohio State football tradition.

    “Our coaches and players were excited to see the different elements Nike presented in the prototype designs and samples. The uniform elements are still in production, and we are extremely eager to see the finished product when it arrives.

    “For this special program, we chose to recognize the achievements of our undefeated 1954 national championship team, winning the Big Ten title outright before capturing a Rose Bowl victory. These great Buckeyes celebrated their 55th anniversary with us at the Minnesota game, and this is another way for us to pay homage to their stellar achievements.

    “Our fans will be able to get the first look at these unique uniforms on Sunday, Nov. 15, when we will share photos of the finished product on our website OhioStateBuckeyes.com. Fans can also take a look at the actual uniform up close that week in our official Team Shop in the Schottenstein Center. And our team will wear these custom designs when the Buckeyes take the field Nov. 21 up north in Ann Arbor.

    “Again, this is a one-time opportunity to honor a great championship team. We have no plans to make any changes to the traditional Buckeye uniform for the foreseeable future.”[/quote]

    I too just heard this. The thing is in 1954 Ohio State wore the red or scarlet for most all of the season until the USC game. Then they wore the shoulder yoke cool pattern[/quote]

    and re-reading the release– no mention whatsoever about the helmet. ’54 team had the white helmet.

  • Justin H | November 4, 2009 at 9:49 pm |

    ok, so im nto sure if this has been covered, but here’s the predictable end to the UCF/Jordan/nike drama:

    http://sports.espn.g...

  • The Hemogoblin | November 4, 2009 at 9:52 pm |

    [quote comment=”358209″]A couple of things. First, I didn’t have the chance to read all the way through the comments, but, from what I saw, it was pretty pleasing to see how civil this debate was.

    I’m 100 percent with Paul here too. As a journalist, I’ve heard a lot of my colleagues first bemoan the internet (instead of trying to understand it) and then when that failed, working as hard as possible to discredit any blogger “because they’re not real journalists”. There are some things that you just don’t HAVE to go to school to do. Having proper training probably will make you better, but it’s not essential. Kudos all the way around for a great topic today.[/quote]

    I agree with you about the bloggers versus journalists debate. I’m currently a sophomore journalism student at the University of Oregon, and it’s really interesting to watch, in real time, as some of the most well-educated people in journalism are trying to cope with the uprising of social media, the death of newspapers and, most importantly, the rise of the internet as the primary news medium.

    I’ve written my share of blogs (in my previous life, I have over 100 blog posts), plus I have written opinion pieces for an internet-only sports site (which I linked in my ID– go free advertising) and I am also a copy editor and a freelance sports reporter for the Oregon Daily Emerald, the main newspaper at U of O.

    I’ve looked at what is happening to journalism from three different perspectives, and I believe people can be successful writers even without true experience. However, I’ve found that the farther I have gotten into writing, the more I have improved as a writer AND I’ve also found that getting a specialized education allowed me to learn things that I would have never been able to learn by just writing.

    I hope that my statement doesn’t fall on deaf ears, because there’s an obvious parallel between the state of flux journalism is in and what Scott Misner emailed Paul about. I think that I am in a relatively unique situation in regards to the other people that have posted today.

    I hate not getting to topics until 10 PM EST. Damn you, school/work. Thanks to the two people that read this

    Kenny

  • The Hemogoblin | November 4, 2009 at 9:54 pm |

    AAAAAAAAAAND feck, I spliced a comma. Right at the end. *sigh*

  • James Craven | November 4, 2009 at 10:02 pm |

    Just read that the MLB licencing and WorldVision are donating unused World Series shirts. man, that Back-to-Back World Champions Phillies shirt they had in the macy*s ad in the Philadelphia Inquirer will look great among Indonesians.

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 10:04 pm |

    Actually Ohio State had the gray helmet in 1954.

    http://img.photobuck...

  • Mike Engle | November 4, 2009 at 10:07 pm |

    [quote comment=”358219″]Actually Ohio State had the gray helmet in 1954.

    http://img.photobuck...
    What school is that other team? Is that Michigan? If so, it looks like their helmets are backwards, and I didn’t know they had that UCLA/Nebraska/briefly Red Wings font. But blue hats over white tops and maize pants…that’s their look.

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 10:09 pm |

    [quote comment=”358220″][quote comment=”358219″]Actually Ohio State had the gray helmet in 1954.

    http://img.photobuck...
    What school is that other team? Is that Michigan? If so, it looks like their helmets are backwards, and I didn’t know they had that UCLA/Nebraska/briefly Red Wings font. But blue hats over white tops and maize pants…that’s their look.[/quote]

    i think it’s iowa, no?

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 10:16 pm |

    [quote comment=”358221″][quote comment=”358220″][quote comment=”358219″]Actually Ohio State had the gray helmet in 1954.

    http://img.photobuck...
    What school is that other team? Is that Michigan? If so, it looks like their helmets are backwards, and I didn’t know they had that UCLA/Nebraska/briefly Red Wings font. But blue hats over white tops and maize pants…that’s their look.[/quote]

    i think it’s iowa, no?[/quote]
    Purdue

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 10:22 pm |

    [quote comment=”358222″]Purdue[/quote]

    thanks james

    i see someone was paying attention when we had this discussion previously…obviously that someone wasn’t me…

  • The Hemogoblin | November 4, 2009 at 10:27 pm |

    Phil,

    I replied to your email.

    <3<3<3<3

  • JTH | November 4, 2009 at 10:29 pm |

    [quote comment=”358223″][quote comment=”358222″]Purdue[/quote]

    thanks james

    i see someone was paying attention when we had this discussion previously…obviously that someone wasn’t me…[/quote]
    Was that helmet discussed before? I honestly can’t recall.

    Anyway, more pics at Helmet Hut, but none showing that numeral font.

  • LarryB | November 4, 2009 at 10:37 pm |

    Yes that was Purdue vs Ohio State. The game was at Purdue and Ohio State wore red and Purdue white.

    A lot of stories out there about Ohio State and possible throwbacks or whatever. I will believe it when I see it.

  • Fight | November 4, 2009 at 10:47 pm |

    The talk of the Ohio State rivalry uniforms got me searching the Intrawebs … I found this Texas uniform (http://alt.coxnewswe...) is that their rivalry uni?

  • =bg= | November 4, 2009 at 11:00 pm |

    Looks like the Evil Empire is going to win this one. Well, they DO have classic unis.

  • flip | November 4, 2009 at 11:04 pm |

    [quote comment=”358063″][quote comment=”358041″]New Minnesota Twins road caps are out…

    http://www.neweracap...
    And Royals’ Alt.
    http://www.neweracap...

    Late to the show today and scrolled through better than 200 really good posts. Great topic today.

    That Royals’ cap is really, really lame. My poor, poor team keeps going south.

  • Mike Engle | November 4, 2009 at 11:06 pm |

    [quote comment=”358228″]Looks like the Evil Empire is going to win this one. Well, they DO have classic unis.[/quote]
    Phillies don’t have terrible uniforms either, though I don’t like red pinstripes (and I don’t care that it’s a tradition of theirs, I still don’t like it).
    Random epiphany: Ricko once accused the Phillies of throwing royal onto the uniforms for complexity’s sake. (Otherwise, the current unis are almost exactly like the Whiz Kids’.) I wonder: maybe it’s their way of keeping blue from before? Maroon and powder yielding to red and royal, perhaps?

  • Joe Raskin | November 4, 2009 at 11:07 pm |

    If that’s Messier’s son, he has the same look in his eyes that his dad did around the net. Better watch out for him.

  • LI Phil | November 4, 2009 at 11:16 pm |

    enter sandman

  • Kyle | November 4, 2009 at 11:29 pm |

    [quote comment=”358204″]for those following the Ohio State alternate uniforms rumors– this just out from their AD–

    A statement from Ohio State director of athletics Gene Smith:

    “During spring, 2009, Ohio State was invited by Nike to participate in its Rivalry uniform program with several other universities from around the nation. They offered us a chance to try a new uniform product featuring cutting-edge fabrics and technology; participation in the program also offered us a one-time opportunity to salute one of those great championship teams that have built the Ohio State football tradition.

    “Our coaches and players were excited to see the different elements Nike presented in the prototype designs and samples. The uniform elements are still in production, and we are extremely eager to see the finished product when it arrives.

    “For this special program, we chose to recognize the achievements of our undefeated 1954 national championship team, winning the Big Ten title outright before capturing a Rose Bowl victory. These great Buckeyes celebrated their 55th anniversary with us at the Minnesota game, and this is another way for us to pay homage to their stellar achievements.

    “Our fans will be able to get the first look at these unique uniforms on Sunday, Nov. 15, when we will share photos of the finished product on our website OhioStateBuckeyes.com. Fans can also take a look at the actual uniform up close that week in our official Team Shop in the Schottenstein Center. And our team will wear these custom designs when the Buckeyes take the field Nov. 21 up north in Ann Arbor.

    “Again, this is a one-time opportunity to honor a great championship team. We have no plans to make any changes to the traditional Buckeye uniform for the foreseeable future.”[/quote]

    Well that is exciting news. Rivalry throwbacks were mentioned as a possibility by Pitt’s coach Wannstedt on Tuesday. This Michigan/Ohio State confirmation certainly gives credence to our speculations about Pitt/WVU (since both are also Nike schools).

    I wonder what other Nike schools might be part of this “Rivalry Uniform Program?”
    Oklahoma-Oklahoma State?
    Virginia-Virginia Tech?
    Florida-Florida State?
    Cal-Stanford?

  • The Hemogoblin | November 4, 2009 at 11:43 pm |

    Oregon and OSU are both Nike schools with gonzo uniforms…

  • The Hemogoblin | November 4, 2009 at 11:56 pm |

    Ew.

  • Mike Engle | November 5, 2009 at 12:02 am |

    [quote comment=”358232″]enter sandman[/quote]
    Enter Sandman, Exit 27.

  • =bg= | November 5, 2009 at 12:17 am |

    [quote comment=”358229″][quote comment=”358063″][quote comment=”358041″]New Minnesota Twins road caps are out…

    http://www.neweracap...
    And Royals’ Alt.
    http://www.neweracap...

    Late to the show today and scrolled through better than 200 really good posts. Great topic today.

    That Royals’ cap is really, really lame. My poor, poor team keeps going south.[/quote]

    Ah, that is HORRIBLE. Looks like a Smurf.

  • katie | November 5, 2009 at 12:21 am |

    Fox just conducted a post game interview with Charlie Manuel in Yankee Stadium and there was a green Mark Sanchez Jets jersey hanging up right behind his head while he was talking. I don’t have a picture or screen grab, but what’s up with that?

  • LarryB | November 5, 2009 at 12:29 am |

    I have always liked the Phillies uniforms

    Yankees win the 27th World Series. Even my 82 year old mom knows the Yankees have always won.

  • Shaun | November 5, 2009 at 12:42 am |

    anyone notice the sponsor creep when selig handed godzilla the MVP? hope whoever it was feels like they got their $x00,000+ worth, cuz i sure as hell forgot who the sponsor was

  • Shaun | November 5, 2009 at 12:55 am |

    and it apparently costs $13K for a school to get new helmets… looks like they sprung for a helmet for all 131 players on the roster.

    http://sports.espn.g...

  • The Jeff | November 5, 2009 at 7:03 am |

    [quote comment=”358213″][quote comment=”358211″]As for the entrance exam, I’d say those are intentional failures. That test is not hard in any way, assuming it hasn’t changed in the last decade.[/quote]

    were you in the forces?[/quote]

    Not quite. I was talked into joining by my uncle and a recruiter back in 1999. The short version of the story is that things didn’t quite work out. Anyways, the entrance exam was graded on a 1-99 scale with 99 being perfect and I believe it was a 31 being a “passing” score. I had a 95.

  • Wayne Koehler | November 5, 2009 at 7:10 am |

    I do some graphic design work at my job and have often muttered the phrase, “everything thinks they’re a graphic designer just because they can use Publisher.” I was trained in Graphic Arts back in the mid 1970s and cringe when I see some of the “work” produced today. However, when it comes to having a contest to design a high school uniform, more power to you. Sure, it may take a “thousands of dollars” out of some designer’s wallet, but it’s keeping those same dollars in a high school budget that probably couldn’t afford a designer. It’s brainstorming and nothing else. Get over yourself, Mr. Misner.

  • Jodi | November 5, 2009 at 7:27 am |

    Another professional designer here working for institutional clients in the DC Metro area for 25 years…

    This is THE conversation in the profession these days, not necessarily a local HS team holding a contest, but much larger well-heeled organizations doing the same thing, as well as the Logos-R-Us sites and services popping up all over the place.

    Agreed though, the market does set the value. And the market shops at WalMart. ‘Nuff said on that point.

    Which means that what you mostly see are two very distant poles of a vast profession… the gigantic Agency charging tens of thousands for logos (and perhaps this too is part of the problem), and the kid down the street who uses PhotoShop and maybe does have a little innate talent but no training, experience and apprenticeship (and it will not likely matter).

    There is however a vast middle ground of design practitioners, most of whom spent their college years studying problem-solving (concepts), craft (typography, color, grids etc) and technology. Then, for those of us who own studios, there’s the admin/business side, managing complex projects, personnel if we’re so inclined, invoicing, marketing our skills to new clients, and managing/serving clients.

    Most of us have apprenticed for years and decades, honing our chops in the above 4 categories (thinking, crafting, technology, business)… and I promise you, there are precious few of us who excel in all three areas. Those of us who do excel are really really terrific at what we do. And, if we’re still doing it, we deeply love what we do, as passionately as you love… say, baseball (go Yankees, btw!).

    If we sound defensive, bitter or anxious, it’s because we are. Like journalism, our field has woken up in a brand new day, and some of us really love our practice of design so very much that it is tough to roll with these continual punches. We want to practice design. We want our excellent work to be valued in society. We want to make a difference in the world. We do love fonts, but that’s a tiny part of our lives.

    All of that said, designers, and journalists, must flex around these changes to survive. The MAIN thing that designers can still “sell,” that the average teenager down the street can’t offer competitively (I’m not saying never, but most of the time), is PROBLEM SOLVING, not font choice.

    Will the logo inspire the team? The fans? The advertisers? Will it position the team to win, and win big, in all three arenas? Will the logo endure so that uni-bloggers in the next century are still in love with it?

    This is what matters, this is design, this has value.

    Which doesn’t negate WalMart, it just has to learn to live in the same world.

  • KilroyFSU | November 5, 2009 at 8:54 am |

    [quote comment=”358035″][quote comment=”358032″]Well how about that. You’ve almost articulated free market principles, Paul! Look out, you might be a capitalist![/quote]

    And whoever said I wasn’t? (Hint: Not me.) Remember, I’m a freelancer — I make a living by producing something and selling it on the open market. In short, I’m an entrepreneur. Just because I’m not a corporate douchebag, that doesn’t mean I don’t have any sense of capitalist enterprise.

    Jeez.[/quote]

    Didn’t know you were so sensitive about the topic. I could have added a little happy face or to indicate it was a joke, but I didn’t think it necessary.

  • chance michaels | November 5, 2009 at 9:47 am |

    [quote comment=”358172″][quote comment=”358158″]Today’s discussion reminds me of a saying…

    “Remember: amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.”[/quote]

    that’s a marvelous quote and kind of funny… but really really not true. the guy who built the ark got blueprints from a fabulous professional Designer with a long resume of great work. see Genesis 1.[/quote]
    You have to be kidding me.

    Guy was a hack.

  • Dupes | November 6, 2009 at 2:53 pm |

    OHIO STATE 1954 Throwbacks with Helmet and Pants

    http://twitgoo.com/4...

  • Mike in Hawaii | November 7, 2009 at 4:18 am |

    Sigh, I hate when certain job fields streeeeeetch metaphors to attain credibility. Graphic designers…you are not mechanics, you are not doctors, you are not furnace repairmen, you are not pilots…and if someone can fire up a design program and could a reasonable approximation of your work, well then, that’s your problem, not ours. Besides, as someone pointed out…based on the Bills uniforms or the late 90s Cavs and Hawks uniforms, you’re doin’ it wrong.