Did the Team That Later Played in the Silverdome Wear Gold Domes?

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Got a really interesting communiqué the other day from reader Matthew Earl, as follow:

I was interested in getting something that had the Lions’ new logo/helmet on it, so I was lured in by this T-shirt, which I mail-ordered as a unique uni item. (For clarification, the dates under each helmet read, from left to right: 1950, 1960, 1983, 2003, and Present).

The obvious question I have for you is this: What’s the deal with the 1950 gold helmet? I had assumed that licensed clothing is accurate, but I began to question this after I received the shirt. The Lions’ press release regarding their new uniforms includes a breakdown of uni changes made over the years, including mentions blue helmets occasionally being used. But the word “gold” doesn’t appear in that breakdown.

My own research has turned up only one possible reference to the Lions using a gold helmet: this auction item, which was supposedly worn by Bobby Layne in 1953 — not the 1950 referenced on the shirt.

Given all this information, I felt I had no recourse but to return the shirt for a refund, as I was opening myself up to an indefensible discussion at best and ridicule at worst.

OK, there’s a lot to chew on here, not the least of which is Matthew’s “[assumption] that licensed clothing is accurate.” As many of you know by now, licensed gear often has all sorts of errors — sometimes due to sloppy work on the licensee’s part, sometimes due to the sketchy nature of historical data.

Are any of those factors at work here? Tough to say. I’m not aware of the Lions having worn gold helmets, but pre-1959 NFL history isn’t well documented, so there are plenty of gaps in my mental database. According to Tim Brulia’s Pro Football Uniform History Project, the Lions wore silver, blue, and red helmets at various points over the years (yes, red), but there’s no mention of gold. Then again, Tim frequently sends me updates and revisions as he uncovers new data, so maybe the gold helmet — which could look very much like a silver helmet in a black-and-white newspaper photo — is just something he missed. Tim, do you know anything about this?

Meanwhile, let’s go back to that Bobby Layne helmet. The auction listing states the following:

The gold was a break from tradition; the silver [stripe] held a link to the franchise’s formidable past, thus the combination. It should also be noted that during the 1953 season, the Lions wore the gold helmet with a silver center stripe during 12 out of 13 regular season games, including the NFL Championship game. On Saturday night, October 3rd, during a 27-17 victory against the Colts in Baltimore, they wore solid royal blue helmets. The entire 1953 season of Lions game highlights were reviewed, and the gold helmet/silver center stripe styling is apparent throughout, save for the Colts’ night game.

Another issue, which needs edification, is the “amateurish” greenish splotches [that] adorn the helmet’s shell. One might think that a professional football helmet would never have such discoloration. While that assumption is probably correct even for the 1950s, there is a plausible explanation. The gold paint used during this period was not pure; it was a blend of yellow, golds, and copper. The copper pigments had a tendency to degrade and turn green. A picture of an early 1950s Lions helmet was used on the four-color cover of Myron Cope’s book, ‘The Game That Was.’ It depicts the same greenish discoloration.

Fortunately, there exists an exact mate to this helmet from another Lions superstar legend, Doak Walker. The Pro Football Hall of Fame has Walker’s complete uniform from 1953 — jersey, pants, shoes, and helmet. The helmet shows identical greenish degradation to the shell.

Now, there’s a lot of typical auction house bullshit in that text (“formidable past,” “superstar legend,” blah-blah-blah — can the flowery prose and just give us the facts, please), but you get the gist: According to the auction text, there are at least two other examples of gold Lions helmets floating around out there — the Myron Cope book cover and the Doak Walker uni at the Hall of Fame.

I haven’t been able to find an image of the book cover (anyone have that book?) or had time to check with the Hall (oh, but wait, someone already posted this in the comments, so there you go), but that’s sort of beside the point. The big issue here, which we’re experiencing for the umpteenth time, is that pro football uniform history is woefully underdocumented. If the auction listing is correct, then the Lions’ uni history listed on the team’s own web site is inaccurate (and so is Tim Brulia’s listing, but that’s more forgivable); if the info on the Lions’ site is accurate, then the auction house is pulling a fast one — and is able to do so with impunity because there are so few resources that allow us to confirm or reject the info in the auction listing. Either way, it’s a mess.

I’m interested in knowing whether the Lions ever wore a gold lid, but I’m a lot more interested in getting the NFL’s uniform history sorted out. It’s situations like this one that really make you appreciate Marc Okkonen. His MLB database, for all its flaws, is miles beyond the sorry state of NFL documentation.

As for Matthew’s T-shirt, I’d say the jury’s still out. Maybe the Lions did wear a gold helmet in 1950. Or maybe not. I suspect we’re a long way from knowing for sure.

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Could someone please scrape me off the floor and dump me into bed?: Assuming we get all the finishing touches taken care of today (or tonight… or tomorrow morning…), the Candela Structures show will open tomorrow at noon at the City Reliquary in Brooklyn. Opening reception at 7pm Saturday evening, although it’ll be hard to actually see the exhibit once place fills up, so I’d suggest getting there by 6pm if you actually want to learn the story behind the structures. Of course, if you’d rather just drink and mingle, that’s fine too.

Today’s New York Times has a very nice article about our project. We also got some great coverage from The Sporting News.

Teeny-Tiny Ticker: Reprinted from yesterday’s comments: Now that’s a bullpen buggy. … Neil Best ran a really interesting video clip of Branch Rickey discussing the Continental Baseball League (the proposed alternate league that would have brought baseball back to New York after the Dodgers and Giants left) on his blog yesterday. … All that’s wrong, and right, with life, in a nutshell (with thanks to Chris Lamping). … Chad Gaudin’s 40th-anniversary patch was missing from his right sleeve yesterday (as spotted by J.R. Gain). … Interesting piece here about MLS logos and branding (with thanks to Matt Carlson). … Lots of Yankee Stadium demolition photos here (with thanks to Kevin Rozell). … Whatever.

 

214 comments to Did the Team That Later Played in the Silverdome Wear Gold Domes?

  • the rAKe | May 15, 2009 at 8:35 am |

    Just a quick question…has anything ever been made over the fact that the Washington Senators/Nationals “W” and the Walgreen’s “W” look very similar?

  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 8:38 am |
  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 8:41 am |
  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 8:45 am |

    From a google search “Doak Walker Lions”

    http://media.photobu...

    Remember, Google is our friend.

  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 8:49 am |

    Someone already put time into this though,

    https://www.gameused...

  • Marc M. | May 15, 2009 at 8:59 am |

    Loved the NYT article!

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 9:00 am |

    University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko

  • xyz | May 15, 2009 at 9:05 am |

    Paul,
    The Lions helmet is a Riddell clear shell (tenite plastic) and it was silver but due to the age has faded to a gold hue. HelmetHut has a nice write up about it.

  • bill | May 15, 2009 at 9:06 am |

    [quote comment="329312"]Just a quick question…has anything ever been made over the fact that the Washington Senators/Nationals “W” and the Walgreen’s “W” look very similar?[/quote]

    I’ve also noticed the similarity and have been expecting some sort of legal battle.

    Love the chauffeur uni in the bullpen buggy picture.

  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 9:11 am |

    [quote comment="329319"]Paul,
    The Lions helmet is a Riddell clear shell (tenite plastic) and it was silver but due to the age has faded to a gold hue. HelmetHut has a nice write up about it.[/quote]

    Do you have a link to the article? I can’t seem to find it.

  • xyz | May 15, 2009 at 9:12 am |

    HelmetHut write up
    “Although a scientist would contend that it’s simply the reflection of its internal silver paint shining though its now decayed and yellowing transparent plastic shell don’t be fooled. Any true Detroit Lion’s fan understands that the golden hue that now glows from an original 1950’s Lions “Riddell RT” helmet is a sign from the football gods commemorating the team’s fifty year anniversary of its glory years. In the “Golden Fifties” the Lions played in the NFL Championship four times and won three times, the last time in 1957.

    There is probably no finer collectable representation from that glorious period that this month’s featured helmet worn by Bobby Layne, the Lion’s immortal quarterback and true leader on and off the field. The helmet, along with his Honolulu blue jersey, were originally sourced directly from the estate of the Lion’s longtime equipment manager Roy “Friday” Macklem. Bobby was a favorite of ole “Friday” and it was common knowledge among many of the players that the two often shared a nip or two in the locker room every day prior to practice. Tales of Bobby’s exploits are legendary and tend to grow over the years but there is not an exaggeration to say that he was one of the greatest team leaders in the history of sports.

    There is no question that this relic belongs on display at the luxurious Lion’s headquarters or in the Pro Football Hall of Fame where Bobby’s legacy has resided since his election in 1967. Unfortunately, unless the NFL owners can create additional sources of income beyond national television and radio contracts, private suite sales, stadium naming rights, merchandise licensing, private seat licenses, parking revenues, $250 club level seating, $6 hotdogs and $8 beers there is no discretionary money left to acquire these priceless artifacts for their fans (customers) to enjoy when they visit the stadium.

    Bobby’s famous and now retired number “22” remains proud and clearly visible in its original position at the rear of this early 1950’s (1954 factory date code) leather appointed “RT” helmet. These gold (with black trim) helmet numerals were the same type offered in the 1950’s Riddell helmet catalog and worn by several teams during this period. Ironically, Bobby periodically continued wearing these same style helmet numerals long after he was traded to the Steelers in 1957 up until his final regular season game in 1962 long after they were discarded by most other teams. In post season play that season Bobby and the Steelers qualified for the, now defunct, “Runner-Up” Bowl (against the Lions) the game when the Steelers first introduced their now iconic black helmets. Another consistent feature of this and every helmet that he wore throughout his 15 year pro career was the absence of a facemask, a vivid reflection of his unmatched steely and free spirited comportment. Quarterbacks were subject to ferocious blows to the head during this era. Bobby’s helmet included a rare, Riddell factory installed, optional padded headband and internal padded ear holes designed to minimize potential head injuries. The helmet’s gray center ridge, unlike the remainder of the shell, is not translucent but color impregnated explaining why time has not also turned it golden.

    It has often been quoted that “Bobby Layne never lost a game – time just ran out on him.” The image of this month’s featured Bobby Layne helmet inspires the following additional sentiments: “As time passes the golden locks of mere mortals turn silver but the once silver headgear that of this legendary Lions quarterback will forever radiate a growing golden sparkle.”

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 9:16 am |

    Paul,

    That was a VERY flattering article and in the grey lady, no less!

    Very impressive.

    I was hoping for at least one Collateral Gammage reference though.

  • DenverGregg | May 15, 2009 at 9:19 am |

    Got a survey by e-mail from NFL shop. They’re looking into having customizable gear with non-current team logos/colors and possibly allowing customization with retired player names (currently a no-no).

  • Ry Co 40 | May 15, 2009 at 9:24 am |

    [quote comment="329323"]Paul,

    That was a VERY flattering article and in the grey lady, no less!

    Very impressive.

    I was hoping for at least one Collateral Gammage reference though.[/quote]

    really great article! i’m excited for both of you!!! hope all goes well and smooth, i know everyone will enjoy the show!

  • Adrian B | May 15, 2009 at 9:26 am |

    Wow this is a great site.
    Dave Parker!

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 9:28 am |

    Speaking of the Nationals and the Walgreens’ W, I noticed this article in the Times this morning.

    I presume the logo isn’t stolen, as MLB has been very tough with Little Leagues using their logos without permission. I really hope George Washington High is using it under license….

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 9:31 am |

    [quote comment="329319"]Paul,
    The Lions helmet is a Riddell clear shell (tenite plastic) and it was silver but due to the age has faded to a gold hue. HelmetHut has a nice write up about it.[/quote]

    Here is HelmetHut’s opinion.

  • DenverGregg | May 15, 2009 at 9:33 am |

    [quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    The Sioux hockey unis have been among the finest unis in all of sport, IMO, although in recent years they’ve gotten a bit black-happy.

    Hate to contradict Ricko, but it appears that the flickertail would be way too tiny to be a deer. I can think of a good Bullwinkle-related look for the next logo, though.

  • blt | May 15, 2009 at 9:36 am |

    Great article in the NYT. I’ll be in NYC next week, and I’m excited to check it out. As a former NYC Parks employee I got a kick out of the fact that the historical sign has all its info wrong. I think those signs were rather mass produced so I’m not surprised they played fast and loose.

    Also, it’s fantastic to see the Twin Cities Baseball Wobblies representing in today’s ticker! (“All that’s wrong, and right, with life.”)

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 9:39 am |

    [quote comment="329327"]Speaking of the Nationals and the Walgreens’ W, I noticed this article in the Times this morning.

    I presume the logo isn’t stolen, as MLB has been very tough with Little Leagues using their logos without permission. I really hope George Washington High is using it under license….[/quote]
    Notice the ‘MLB’ logo on the backside of the hats… With that logo, MLB gets their share of each hat sold. I would think, in that case, they would be fine.

  • Bernard | May 15, 2009 at 9:41 am |

    [quote comment="329328"][quote comment="329319"]Paul,
    The Lions helmet is a Riddell clear shell (tenite plastic) and it was silver but due to the age has faded to a gold hue. HelmetHut has a nice write up about it.[/quote]

    Here is HelmetHut’s opinion.[/quote]

    Man… the pics linked in post #4 REALLY look like gold-painted helmets to me. Anybody else?

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 9:47 am |

    [quote comment="329329"][quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    The Sioux hockey unis have been among the finest unis in all of sport, IMO, although in recent years they’ve gotten a bit black-happy.

    Hate to contradict Ricko, but it appears that the flickertail would be way too tiny to be a deer. I can think of a good Bullwinkle-related look for the next logo, though.[/quote]

    All I know about Flickertails is what a couple guys were saying on the radio this a.m. I thought it sounded more like some kind of prairie dog, but they were guessing a deer, so I figured maybe than some info in front of them.

    —Ricko

  • Brian Erni | May 15, 2009 at 9:48 am |

    Just want to share the common sentiment: amazing article. Congratulations on the culmination of all the hard work. You two should be very proud!

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 9:52 am |

    [quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    Well thats nice…

    Soon every sports mascot is going to be some kind of furry animal… wouldn’t want to make someone feel injusticed by a nickname referencing a group of people or some kind of natural event that causes damage…

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 9:52 am |

    Huge news out of Nike today. This changes everything!

  • Priest | May 15, 2009 at 9:57 am |

    I’m not sure if this has been covered already, but I just came across this… http://jaysshop.stor... Looks like the Jays will go Red again on Canada Day. I like it… for whatever reason, the logo looks more blue against red.

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 10:06 am |

    [quote comment="329329"][quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    The Sioux hockey unis have been among the finest unis in all of sport, IMO, although in recent years they’ve gotten a bit black-happy.

    Hate to contradict Ricko, but it appears that the flickertail would be way too tiny to be a deer. I can think of a good Bullwinkle-related look for the next logo, though.[/quote]

    The tribe leaders need to give their heads a shake. If most of their residents approve the name, why are their leaders still opposed to it?

    Politics and being politically-correct are ruining sports just like they are ruining society. “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”, “Blackhawks”, “Americans”, or “Indians”. If Notre Dame can drop the “fighting” moniker and stick with “Irish”, why not honour the Sioux tribes and drop the “fighting”?

    I am not happy about this. Not one bit.

  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 10:13 am |

    [quote comment="329328"][quote comment="329319"]Paul,
    The Lions helmet is a Riddell clear shell (tenite plastic) and it was silver but due to the age has faded to a gold hue. HelmetHut has a nice write up about it.[/quote]

    Here is HelmetHut’s opinion.[/quote]

    HH’s assessment is plausible, but it can’t be accurate. This (linked below) picture clearly shows Layne (and maybe not so clearly the rest) wearing a gold helmet with a grey/silver stripe.

    http://media.photobu...

    I guess the doubters will argue that the flash powder used to take these pictures caused the goldish hue. Or perhaps over time the photographed helmet aged just the same as the real one did…

    imho, the Lions wore gold helmets at some point in time.

  • Casey (Davis, CA) | May 15, 2009 at 10:16 am |

    Trent Edwards and Lee Evans of the Bills taking BP with the Blue Jays. High Cuffed!

    http://www.buffalone...

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 10:21 am |

    [quote comment="329338"]“Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]
    I totally disagree.

    “Redskins” is approximately 17 trillion times more offensive than “Fighting Sioux.”

  • BirminghamProSports.com | May 15, 2009 at 10:22 am |

    A good photo of the “The Game That Was” book can be found here:

    http://www.betweenth...

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 10:22 am |

    [quote] “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]

    wait…what?

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 10:23 am |

    [quote]the Lions wore silver, blue, and red helmets at various points over the years (yes, red), but there’s no mention of gold.[/quote]
    They also wore black in the Bo McMillin days.

  • Craig | May 15, 2009 at 10:24 am |

    [quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Any rumors as to the new nickname candidates are?

  • Jim Bullard | May 15, 2009 at 10:24 am |

    [quote comment="329338"][quote comment="329329"][quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    The Sioux hockey unis have been among the finest unis in all of sport, IMO, although in recent years they’ve gotten a bit black-happy.

    Hate to contradict Ricko, but it appears that the flickertail would be way too tiny to be a deer. I can think of a good Bullwinkle-related look for the next logo, though.[/quote]

    The tribe leaders need to give their heads a shake. If most of their residents approve the name, why are their leaders still opposed to it?

    Politics and being politically-correct are ruining sports just like they are ruining society. “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”, “Blackhawks”, “Americans”, or “Indians”. If Notre Dame can drop the “fighting” moniker and stick with “Irish”, why not honour the Sioux tribes and drop the “fighting”?

    I am not happy about this. Not one bit.[/quote]

    I agree, at what point will we decide that political correctness is ruining tradition and history? Though, I can see the argument that “Redskin” is offensive. Names like “Redskins” and “Savages” have negative racial connotations, whereas teams simply named after a tribe I believe, are a great honor to the tribe.

    I haven’t read or heard anywhere that Notre Dame has dropped the “Fighting” in “Fighting Irish.” Is this a fact?

    Even though it is absolutely absurd for UND to drop “Fighting Sioux” as their nickname, if they did decide to go back to “Flickertails” I think that is a pretty cool name as well.

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 10:25 am |

    [quote comment="329343"][quote comment="329338"]“Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]
    I totally disagree.

    “Redskins” is approximately 17 trillion times more offensive than “Fighting Sioux.”[/quote]

    Meaning that my point in keeping the name – Fighting Sioux – would be 17 trillion times more acceptable. ;o)

    And JTH, you’re leading the hockey pool after a stellar Round Two!

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 10:26 am |

    [quote comment="329345"][quote] “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]

    wait…what?[/quote]

    Yah, gotta admit even as 10-year-old I thought “Redskins” was over the line.

    Of course, considering who OWNED the team when the change was made from Boston Braves to Boston Redskins, it does suggest a certain insensitivity to such things.

    Doesn’t forgive it mind, just explains it.

    —Ricko

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 10:27 am |

    “Doesn’t forgive it mind, just explains it.”

    Ooops, at work, that should be…

    “Doesn’t forgive it, mind you, just explains it.”

  • Robert in Dallas | May 15, 2009 at 10:28 am |

    [quote comment="329340"]Trent Edwards and Lee Evans of the Bills taking BP with the Blue Jays. High Cuffed!

    http://www.buffalone...

    The high-cuffed pants were the closest thing that the NFLers could get to the bikers shorts that they prefer to wear.

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 10:29 am |

    [quote comment="329332"][quote comment="329328"][quote comment="329319"]Paul,
    The Lions helmet is a Riddell clear shell (tenite plastic) and it was silver but due to the age has faded to a gold hue. HelmetHut has a nice write up about it.[/quote]

    Here is HelmetHut’s opinion.[/quote]

    Man… the pics linked in post #4 REALLY look like gold-painted helmets to me. Anybody else?[/quote]
    I definitely agree with that. Center stripe and the rest of the shell are definitely not the same color.

    So even if the info on Helmet Hut is correct and the helmet was was originally silver and it faded to gold, the photographic evidence suggests that the helmet was gold with a silver center stripe and apparently it was worn on the field of play.

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 10:31 am |

    [quote comment="329345"][quote] “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]

    wait…what?[/quote]

    LI Phil, are you disagreeing and saying “Fighting Sioux” is MORE offensive than “Redskins”? Seams Teebz is saying just the opposite: “Fighting Sioux” is not as offensive as “Redskins”. In my opinion, it is obvious that “Redskins” is the worst of the bunch so seeing someone disagree with that surprises me. Am I mis-understanding your comment?

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 10:35 am |

    [quote comment="329349"][quote comment="329343"][quote comment="329338"]“Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]
    I totally disagree.

    “Redskins” is approximately 17 trillion times more offensive than “Fighting Sioux.”[/quote]

    Meaning that my point in keeping the name – Fighting Sioux – would be 17 trillion times more acceptable. ;o)
    [/quote]
    Can’t argue with that…
    [quote]
    And JTH, you’re leading the hockey pool after a stellar Round Two![/quote]
    Thanks.

    Yeah, I saw that on HBIC. I just wish I’d had a bit more faith in the local team. I might have a bigger lead.

    Oh well, I was happy to be wrong on that series. I still ain’t gonna pick ‘em over Detroit, though.

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 10:39 am |

    I do find it funny that, with a current administration trying to change out vocabulary like calling ‘terrorism’ ‘man made disasters’, you’re all but guaranteed to see each and every one of them at FedEx Field sometime this fall cheering on the Redskins…

    Just sayin…

  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 10:40 am |

    btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?

  • timmy b | May 15, 2009 at 10:41 am |

    Paul,

    Saw the discussion on the gold/silver Lions helmet in the early 50’s.

    I have indeed heard and known about a gold helmet that the Lions supposedly worn in the early 50’s. As most (95%+) of my research has involved scoping through b/w newspaper photos, it would be impossible for me to confirm if they did wear the gold helmets based on those photos. If someone out there has confirmation that the Lions DID wear gold helmets and – more importantly – when they wore them, I will gladly change the listing on the 33-58 database.

    The more accurate the database is, the better for ALL of us.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 10:42 am |

    [quote comment="329354"][quote comment="329345"][quote] “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]

    wait…what?[/quote]

    LI Phil, are you disagreeing and saying “Fighting Sioux” is MORE offensive than “Redskins”? Seams Teebz is saying just the opposite: “Fighting Sioux” is not as offensive as “Redskins”. In my opinion, it is obvious that “Redskins” is the worst of the bunch so seeing someone disagree with that surprises me. Am I mis-understanding your comment?[/quote]

    no…teebz is saying “fighting sioux” isn’t any more offensive than “redskins”…

    i disagree…unless teebz feels ‘fighting sioux’ is EXTREMELY offensive…then it would be no more offensive than ‘redskins’

    IOW…”redskins” is viewed by many as an extremely offensive term, akin to the “N” word … i certainly don’t find ‘fighting sioux’ to be offensive — at least not in the same way as “redskin” is offensive

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 10:42 am |

    [quote comment="329349"]And JTH, you’re leading the hockey pool after a stellar Round Two![/quote]
    I’ll say this…

    The Carolina Hurricanes will be the end of me. Not sure I can take any more of this late game/OT heroics anymore. My God, what is this, the 6th time in 14 games where the game was decided in either the final minute or overtime? Not to mention a Game 7 that was won with less than a minute on the clock and another Game 7 that was won in OT?

    One of these days, I’ll be watching a playoff game, clutch my chest, and BAM… no more Beardface

  • Stuby | May 15, 2009 at 10:45 am |

    [quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]
    Brand of potato chips and other snacks…

    http://www.utzsnacks...

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 10:46 am |

    [quote comment="329352"][quote comment="329340"]Trent Edwards and Lee Evans of the Bills taking BP with the Blue Jays. High Cuffed!

    http://www.buffalone...

    The high-cuffed pants were the closest thing that the NFLers could get to the bikers shorts that they prefer to wear.[/quote]

    That’s a fun story! I love cross-sports type promotions.

    I will definitely root for those two now.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 10:47 am |

    [quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 10:47 am |

    [quote comment="329359"]
    i disagree…unless teebz feels ‘fighting sioux’ is EXTREMELY offensive…then it would be no more offensive than ‘redskins’[/quote]

    No, you got it. I think that the name “Fighting Sioux” could lose a word, but it would be akin to naming the team after someone in particular to honour that person and his/her achievements.

    Aside from their terrible play in recent years, who wasn’t an Islander fan? Phil, does the term “Islander” bother you? I’m guessing no. And you’d probably punch me in the mouth for suggesting as much. lol

    But the term “Sioux” is only used in the most respectful of terms in North Dakota (from what I’ve seen and heard), so I don’t see how the leaders of the Sioux tribes can claim is disrespectful.

    And what of Ralph Englestad Arena? Wasn’t that a clause in him donating the money to build that palace – keep them the “Sioux”?

  • Christopher | May 15, 2009 at 10:52 am |

    [quote comment="329359"][quote comment="329354"][quote comment="329345"][quote] “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]

    wait…what?[/quote]

    LI Phil, are you disagreeing and saying “Fighting Sioux” is MORE offensive than “Redskins”? Seams Teebz is saying just the opposite: “Fighting Sioux” is not as offensive as “Redskins”. In my opinion, it is obvious that “Redskins” is the worst of the bunch so seeing someone disagree with that surprises me. Am I mis-understanding your comment?[/quote]

    no…teebz is saying “fighting sioux” isn’t any more offensive than “redskins”…

    i disagree…unless teebz feels ‘fighting sioux’ is EXTREMELY offensive…then it would be no more offensive than ‘redskins’

    IOW…”redskins” is viewed by many as an extremely offensive term, akin to the “N” word … i certainly don’t find ‘fighting sioux’ to be offensive — at least not in the same way as “redskin” is offensive[/quote]

    End result: its offensive if both of these conditions are met:

    1. The group themselves decide its offensive.

    2. The term was at some point widely used as a pejorative term (e.g. you can’t just say you’re offended, the term has to have been used with the intent offend).

    Terms like “redskin” probably fit this. Like the w.b. term for Mexicans. The words on their own *could* be fine. Heck, if linguistic history went down another path, it could be a term of pride.

    But its not. Its offensive. It has no place in a team name.

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 10:54 am |

    In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 10:57 am |

    Then again, the entire inside of the helmet appears to be gold.
    Why spray the inside?

    I’m thinking they might have been gold. Why not, it’s closer to the color of an actual lion than silver, that’s for sure.

    —Ricko

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 11:00 am |

    [quote comment="329365"]
    But its not. Its offensive. It has no place in a team name.[/quote]

    You just stated that if it is offensive, you have to prove how it is offensive.

    How is naming a team after a particular tribe with which the region has a long history with offensive in any way, especially when you consider that an academic institution such as the University of North Dakota has been using the name for 70+ years? Why is is only offensive now?

    Oh right… the NCAA got its panties in a knot over the name because they feel it demeans the Sioux people. On the contrary, I feel it honours that tribe of native Americans instead of them being forgotten like the hundreds of other tribes across North America. The ones who are forgotten demand more recognition, yet the ones who are honoured want less.

    You can’t have it both ways.

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 11:05 am |

    [quote comment="329368"][quote comment="329365"]
    But its not. Its offensive. It has no place in a team name.[/quote]

    You just stated that if it is offensive, you have to prove how it is offensive.

    How is naming a team after a particular tribe with which the region has a long history with offensive in any way, especially when you consider that an academic institution such as the University of North Dakota has been using the name for 70+ years? Why is is only offensive now?

    Oh right… the NCAA got its panties in a knot over the name because they feel it demeans the Sioux people. On the contrary, I feel it honours that tribe of native Americans instead of them being forgotten like the hundreds of other tribes across North America. The ones who are forgotten demand more recognition, yet the ones who are honoured want less.

    You can’t have it both ways.[/quote]
    How much money is the Univ of N. Dakota giving the Sioux Tribe on a early basis?

    My guess is that somehow, with the economy in the shitter like it is, the Sioux didn’t get as much as they wanted, so they threatened the Univ that if they didn’t pay up, the Sioux would go to the NCAA and force them to change the mascot, and instead of dealing with that, ND just said screw it and decided to go another route…

    Granted, thats just speculation, but when is something like this ever NOT about the money?

  • timmy b | May 15, 2009 at 11:05 am |

    utz chips are made in Hanover, PA, down by the Mason-Dixon line.

    Big sellers here in Central PA.

    Aside from Utz, there are many potato chip brands here, like Martin’s, Hartley’s, Gibble’s, Snyder’s of Hanover, Snyder of Berlin, and my personal pick of the litter, Middleswarth from Middleburg, PA.

    Could explain my weight problem….

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 11:05 am |

    [quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]
    [quote comment=\"329366\"]In today\’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet\’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn\’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that\’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Actually, scientifically, I think that would support the theory that helmet was originally silver (which I happen to disagree with). But the theory goes that the originally clear plastic discolored with a yellowish tint over time. So looking through the yellow plastic at the silver paint behind it, it appears gold. So looking at the inside of the helmet, you are not looking through the yellow plastic and it appears silver.

    As I said, I don\’t agree with this theory because of the photos from the 50s where the helmets look gold; surely they wouldn\’t have discolored within the first couple seasons. Also, it was not that far fetched back in the day for a team to celebrate championships by changing their uniforms the following years, such as putting \”World\’s Champions\” in place of the team name.

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 11:06 am |

    [quote comment="329364"][quote comment="329359"]
    i disagree…unless teebz feels ‘fighting sioux’ is EXTREMELY offensive…then it would be no more offensive than ‘redskins’[/quote]

    No, you got it. I think that the name “Fighting Sioux” could lose a word, but it would be akin to naming the team after someone in particular to honour that person and his/her achievements.

    Aside from their terrible play in recent years, who wasn’t an Islander fan? Phil, does the term “Islander” bother you? I’m guessing no. And you’d probably punch me in the mouth for suggesting as much. lol

    But the term “Sioux” is only used in the most respectful of terms in North Dakota (from what I’ve seen and heard), so I don’t see how the leaders of the Sioux tribes can claim is disrespectful.

    And what of Ralph Englestad Arena? Wasn’t that a clause in him donating the money to build that palace – keep them the “Sioux”?[/quote]

    It doesn’t matter what you or I think about the “respectful” nature of the Sioux nickname. Or what the University intended, for that matter. The only thing which matters is what the tribe thinks, and the tribe, through its elected leaders, has decided that they don’t want the “honor.”

    I’m pretty sure that you’re right and the money from Englestad was on condition that they kept the name. In my opinion that only tarnishes the association – in an era when the epithet is so casually thrown around as to lose its punch, the man is a genuine wannabe Nazi.

  • Ry Co 40 | May 15, 2009 at 11:08 am |

    [quote comment="329360"][quote comment="329349"]And JTH, you’re leading the hockey pool after a stellar Round Two![/quote]
    I’ll say this…

    The Carolina Hurricanes will be the end of me. Not sure I can take any more of this late game/OT heroics anymore. My God, what is this, the 6th time in 14 games where the game was decided in either the final minute or overtime? Not to mention a Game 7 that was won with less than a minute on the clock and another Game 7 that was won in OT?

    One of these days, I’ll be watching a playoff game, clutch my chest, and BAM… no more Beardface[/quote]

    “One of these days, I’ll be watching a playoff game, clutch my chest, and BAM… no more Beardface”

    don’t make promises you can’t keep! KIDDING!!! haha

    i agree though, i can’t take the 1 goal games and overtimes much more! beardface, i feel we’re in for another one of those series!!! do they make AED’s in team colors yet??? well… looks like ‘canes fans and leafs fans are covered (notice the black for blacks sake, by the way):

    http://www.emergency...

    LET’S GO PENS!!!

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 11:08 am |

    [quote comment="329368"][quote comment="329365"]
    But its not. Its offensive. It has no place in a team name.[/quote]

    You just stated that if it is offensive, you have to prove how it is offensive.

    How is naming a team after a particular tribe with which the region has a long history with offensive in any way, especially when you consider that an academic institution such as the University of North Dakota has been using the name for 70+ years? Why is is only offensive now?

    Oh right… the NCAA got its panties in a knot over the name because they feel it demeans the Sioux people. On the contrary, I feel it honours that tribe of native Americans instead of them being forgotten like the hundreds of other tribes across North America. The ones who are forgotten demand more recognition, yet the ones who are honoured want less.

    You can’t have it both ways.[/quote]

    Pretty sure he meant “Redskins” shouldn’t be a team nickname because it clearly met both the conditions he described.

    Don’t think he was saying “Sioux” did.

  • Ry Co 40 | May 15, 2009 at 11:10 am |

    [quote comment="329373"][quote comment="329360"][quote comment="329349"]And JTH, you’re leading the hockey pool after a stellar Round Two![/quote]
    I’ll say this…

    The Carolina Hurricanes will be the end of me. Not sure I can take any more of this late game/OT heroics anymore. My God, what is this, the 6th time in 14 games where the game was decided in either the final minute or overtime? Not to mention a Game 7 that was won with less than a minute on the clock and another Game 7 that was won in OT?

    One of these days, I’ll be watching a playoff game, clutch my chest, and BAM… no more Beardface[/quote]

    “One of these days, I’ll be watching a playoff game, clutch my chest, and BAM… no more Beardface”

    don’t make promises you can’t keep! KIDDING!!! haha

    i agree though, i can’t take the 1 goal games and overtimes much more! beardface, i feel we’re in for another one of those series!!! do they make AED’s in team colors yet??? well… looks like ‘canes fans and leafs fans are covered (notice the black for blacks sake, by the way):

    http://www.emergency...

    LET’S GO PENS!!![/quote]

    oh… and by the way, the whole “One of these days, I’ll be watching a playoff game, clutch my chest, and BAM” thing… i only kid cause i feel the SAME WAY! SO emotionally vested!

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 11:13 am |

    Either way, this point that Chance Michaels makes…
    “It doesn’t matter what you or I think about the “respectful” nature of the Sioux nickname. Or what the University intended, for that matter. The only thing which matters is what the tribe thinks, and the tribe, through its elected leaders, has decided that they don’t want the ‘honor.’ ”
    …is the central, critical determining factor.

    —Ricko

  • DenverGregg | May 15, 2009 at 11:13 am |

    [quote comment="329368"][quote comment="329365"]
    But its not. Its offensive. It has no place in a team name.[/quote]

    You just stated that if it is offensive, you have to prove how it is offensive.

    How is naming a team after a particular tribe with which the region has a long history with offensive in any way, especially when you consider that an academic institution such as the University of North Dakota has been using the name for 70+ years? Why is is only offensive now?
    . . . .[/quote]
    This dispute has been going on for over 30 years. I remember a discussion in 1979 about this topic. It came up that some UND students who were mad about the mascot got together an intramural team (basketball IIRC) comprised entirely of guys of Sioux descent. They named it the “Fighting Norwegians”, thinking that the principal ethnic group of NoDak residents would come around to their way of thinking if they experienced a team being named after them that didn’t include their own ethnic group. The student population (and the townies) generally thought it was funny rather than insulting.

    Seems to me that, similar to team names “Vikings”, “Irish”, “Seminoles”, etc., the mascot name isn’t at all a pejorative term to the group described by the name. There are others who have a whole lot more invested in this, though, and they’re willing to fight about it. Should the next team name be the Gringos?

  • Hott Rodd | May 15, 2009 at 11:14 am |

    [quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko –

    I can’t see the picture you are referring to, however i suppose it would depend on where exactly the paint is located. From what I have read today, the contention is that the gold is caused by the discoloration of the plastic shell, more so than the discoloration of the paint. If this is the case then your theory may not hold true if the silver is at a point on the helmet where it can be viewed directly with no distortion from the plastic.

    If not, then disregard my post.

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 11:15 am |

    Does make me wanna glom onto one of those great-looking kelly green ND hockey jerseys before they disappear, though.

    —Ricko

  • DenverGregg | May 15, 2009 at 11:16 am |

    [quote comment="329370"]utz chips are made in Hanover, PA, down by the Mason-Dixon line.

    Big sellers here in Central PA.

    Aside from Utz, there are many potato chip brands here, like Martin’s, Hartley’s, Gibble’s, Snyder’s of Hanover, Snyder of Berlin, and my personal pick of the litter, Middleswarth from Middleburg, PA.

    Could explain my weight problem….[/quote]
    I had several trips to Philly for software training a few years ago and encountered excellent pretzels called Unique Splits. I’d be well over 300 pounds if they were constantly available.

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 11:16 am |

    [quote comment="329372"]in an era when the epithet is so casually thrown around as to lose its punch, the man is a genuine wannabe Nazi.[/quote]

    As much as he was sympathetic to Nazism, UND’s hockey team will not be playing at his arena if they change the name. He has the Sioux logo everywhere inside the arena, and he stipulated that if the name changed, UND would lose their right to play in the arena.

    Just remember: if this is about dollars and sense (yes, I made that pun) as Beardface says, the real loser in this entire academic exercise is UND. They have no suitable arena, and they will be forbidden to play in the only rink big enough to hold fans where they can make money (the real reason for having a collegiate hockey team) because elders in a tribe, where the name is not only accepted but endorsed, felt that naming UND’s sports teams as the “Sioux” was “disrespectful”.

    Who is the biggest loser in that equation?

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 11:16 am |

    [quote comment="329378"][quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko –

    I can’t see the picture you are referring to, however i suppose it would depend on where exactly the paint is located. From what I have read today, the contention is that the gold is caused by the discoloration of the plastic shell, more so than the discoloration of the paint. If this is the case then your theory may not hold true if the silver is at a point on the helmet where it can be viewed directly with no distortion from the plastic.

    If not, then disregard my post.[/quote]

    Yeah, forgot about the plastic coating stuff. Would they have coated the inside, too? Anybody? Cuz it’s turned gold, too.

    —Ricko

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 11:18 am |

    [quote comment="329374"][quote comment="329368"][quote comment="329365"]
    But its not. Its offensive. It has no place in a team name.[/quote]

    You just stated that if it is offensive, you have to prove how it is offensive.

    How is naming a team after a particular tribe with which the region has a long history with offensive in any way, especially when you consider that an academic institution such as the University of North Dakota has been using the name for 70+ years? Why is is only offensive now?

    Oh right… the NCAA got its panties in a knot over the name because they feel it demeans the Sioux people. On the contrary, I feel it honours that tribe of native Americans instead of them being forgotten like the hundreds of other tribes across North America. The ones who are forgotten demand more recognition, yet the ones who are honoured want less.

    You can’t have it both ways.[/quote]

    Pretty sure he meant “Redskins” shouldn’t be a team nickname because it clearly met both the conditions he described.

    Don’t think he was saying “Sioux” did.[/quote]

    OHHHHH… sorry! Mea culpa! I apologize… I read that totally the wrong way.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 11:24 am |

    i just wanna re-clarify for the earlier poster, in case, as per usual, im not clear

    there are many who find “redskins” to be extremely offensive, such that the epithet may be equated with the same offensive nature as the “N” word

    i certainly don’t view “fighting sioux” to be offensive in the same way as “redskins” is found offensive — but that’s not my call, that’s just MHO

    i was only moderately shocked that teebz would not find redskins any more offensive than fighting sioux, since i think most of us would agree that on the offensiveness scale…redskins is pretty much the top name you can place up there

    either way, despite the plethora of swooshes, whatever happens with the name, they better not dump the greatest third uni ever in college puck

  • Hott Rodd | May 15, 2009 at 11:28 am |

    [quote comment="329382"][quote comment="329378"][quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko –

    I can’t see the picture you are referring to, however i suppose it would depend on where exactly the paint is located. From what I have read today, the contention is that the gold is caused by the discoloration of the plastic shell, more so than the discoloration of the paint. If this is the case then your theory may not hold true if the silver is at a point on the helmet where it can be viewed directly with no distortion from the plastic.

    If not, then disregard my post.[/quote]

    Yeah, forgot about the plastic coating stuff. Would they have coated the inside, too? Anybody? Cuz it’s turned gold, too.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Personally the Bobby Layne helmet looks like a gold helmet to me. But I do not even begin to claim to be an equipment and/or uni historian.

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 11:28 am |

    Having worked with a number of the tribally owned casinos in the Dakotas, I can tell you there still is plenty in enmity between the races thereabouts…on both sides, believe me.

    So…is the real motive to crush an outstanding hockey program just because they can? Possibly.
    Are they tired of the all the still-lingering crap they’ve taken over the last century and a half or so? Possibly, even probably.

    It’s just an unfortunate situation. Too much bitterness and rancor—and sometimes envy, especially now with gaming revenues flowing–on both sides. Perhaps in another environment they could have worked it out, the way the Seminole nation has worked things out with Florida State.

    Or will FSU have to change its nickname name soon, too. Isn’t there some kind of NCAA deadline for political correctness approaching?

    —Ricko

  • ScottyJ in WV | May 15, 2009 at 11:31 am |

    I think the player formerly known as Chad Johnson should change his name to Chad Doucho Grande….

  • Jeff | May 15, 2009 at 11:31 am |

    [quote comment="329331"][quote comment="329327"]Speaking of the Nationals and the Walgreens’ W, I noticed this article in the Times this morning.

    I presume the logo isn’t stolen, as MLB has been very tough with Little Leagues using their logos without permission. I really hope George Washington High is using it under license….[/quote]
    Notice the ‘MLB’ logo on the backside of the hats… With that logo, MLB gets their share of each hat sold. I would think, in that case, they would be fine.[/quote]

    Why is there an MLB logo slapped on the back of a Walgreen’s cap?

    More importantly, I really dig this.

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 11:34 am |

    [quote comment="329384"]i just wanna re-clarify for the earlier poster, in case, as per usual, im not clear

    there are many who find “redskins” to be extremely offensive, such that the epithet may be equated with the same offensive nature as the “N” word

    i certainly don’t view “fighting sioux” to be offensive in the same way as “redskins” is found offensive — but that’s not my call, that’s just MHO

    i was only moderately shocked that teebz would not find redskins any more offensive than fighting sioux, since i think most of us would agree that on the offensiveness scale…redskins is pretty much the top name you can place up there

    either way, despite the plethora of swooshes, whatever happens with the name, they better not dump the greatest third uni ever in college puck[/quote]

    But I do find Redskins extremely offensive. It would be akin to calling a hockey team as the “Caucasians”. My point was that Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than any of the other terms used to describe a group of people by their background.

    How many Canadians and Europeans play for the Rochester Americans? I demand, as a non-American, that the name be changed!

    [This is the part where you can all tell me to GFY, especially if you're an AHL fan. LOL]

    All I was saying is that the term, from what I’ve seen and heard, is highly respected within the state of North Dakota, and I think those other terms – Indians, Redskins, etc. – should be stomped out first before taking offence with the UND Sioux.

  • Hott Rodd | May 15, 2009 at 11:37 am |

    [quote comment="329390"][quote comment="329384"]i just wanna re-clarify for the earlier poster, in case, as per usual, im not clear

    there are many who find “redskins” to be extremely offensive, such that the epithet may be equated with the same offensive nature as the “N” word

    i certainly don’t view “fighting sioux” to be offensive in the same way as “redskins” is found offensive — but that’s not my call, that’s just MHO

    i was only moderately shocked that teebz would not find redskins any more offensive than fighting sioux, since i think most of us would agree that on the offensiveness scale…redskins is pretty much the top name you can place up there

    either way, despite the plethora of swooshes, whatever happens with the name, they better not dump the greatest third uni ever in college puck[/quote]

    But I do find Redskins extremely offensive. It would be akin to calling a hockey team as the “Caucasians”. My point was that Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than any of the other terms used to describe a group of people by their background.

    How many Canadians and Europeans play for the Rochester Americans? I demand, as a non-American, that the name be changed!

    [This is the part where you can all tell me to GFY, especially if you're an AHL fan. LOL]

    All I was saying is that the term, from what I’ve seen and heard, is highly respected within the state of North Dakota, and I think those other terms – Indians, Redskins, etc. – should be stomped out first before taking offence with the UND Sioux.[/quote]

    can I tell you anyway? :-P

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 11:40 am |

    [quote comment="329391"]
    can I tell you anyway? :-P[/quote]

    You usually do, Rodd. LOL

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 11:43 am |

    I’ve often used this a parallel when discussing this “team nicknaming” issue regarding Native American culture… and I wonder if it seems valid to this group:

    Naming my team the “Jews”? Nope, wrong, undoubtedly.

    But how about calling them the “Maccabees”? Would, or would not, that be acceptable?

    —Ricko

  • Eric S | May 15, 2009 at 11:45 am |

    [quote comment="329385"][quote comment="329382"][quote comment="329378"][quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko –

    I can’t see the picture you are referring to, however i suppose it would depend on where exactly the paint is located. From what I have read today, the contention is that the gold is caused by the discoloration of the plastic shell, more so than the discoloration of the paint. If this is the case then your theory may not hold true if the silver is at a point on the helmet where it can be viewed directly with no distortion from the plastic.

    If not, then disregard my post.[/quote]

    Yeah, forgot about the plastic coating stuff. Would they have coated the inside, too? Anybody? Cuz it’s turned gold, too.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Personally the Bobby Layne helmet looks like a gold helmet to me. But I do not even begin to claim to be an equipment and/or uni historian.[/quote]

    According to the Original Helmet History website (http://helmet-histor...), the Lions wore gold helmets with a green tripe from 1950-1954.

    This site hasn’t been updated in a few years, so it would probably be pretty hard to get confirmation from someone there.

  • Ben in London | May 15, 2009 at 11:51 am |

    [quote comment="329393"]I’ve often used this a parallel when discussing this “team nicknaming” issue regarding Native American culture… and I wonder if it seems valid to this group:

    Naming my team the “Jews”? Nope, wrong, undoubtedly.

    But how about calling them the “Maccabees”? Would, or would not, that be acceptable?

    —Ricko[/quote]

    This is perhaps as close as you’ll get
    http://maccabi-haifa...

  • DenverGregg | May 15, 2009 at 11:51 am |

    So you’d contrast this and that. Got it.

  • jesse | May 15, 2009 at 11:53 am |

    Paul, with all the posts about Utz snacks it might be time for you to do a column/tournament about snack foods/brands. Food for thought, no pun intended.

  • Squiddie | May 15, 2009 at 11:54 am |

    The flickertail is another name for the Richardson’s Ground Squirrel. At last a mascot the Minnesota Gophers can fight on equal terms.

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 11:55 am |

    [quote comment="329390"]
    How many Canadians and Europeans play for the Rochester Americans? I demand, as a non-American, that the name be changed![/quote]
    At the risk of taking this discussion into the realm of all-out silliness, I’d like to point out that 5 out of the 7 captains/alternates on the Canadiens and Canucks are not even from Canada.

    There are two from Finland, two from the USA and a Russian (Saku Koivu, Mattias Ohlund, Mike Komisarek, Ryan Kesler and Alexei Kovalev). Hell, the Canucks’ captain can’t even wear the C on his sweater, so I say only one of six is Canadian.

  • Bernard | May 15, 2009 at 11:59 am |

    [quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?!

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 12:01 pm |

    [quote comment="329393"]I’ve often used this a parallel when discussing this “team nicknaming” issue regarding Native American culture… and I wonder if it seems valid to this group:

    Naming my team the “Jews”? Nope, wrong, undoubtedly.

    But how about calling them the “Maccabees”? Would, or would not, that be acceptable?

    —Ricko[/quote]
    Were it up to me, I would call it okay.

    The distinction I would tend to draw is “job.” Nicknames like “Braves” and “Chiefs” are about the jobs that people took within a certain society and I don’t personally have a major issue with them. “Sioux” and “Indians” are about the ethnicity itself, and barring a licensing agreement I would personally label them out of bounds.

    As for “Redskins”, no amount of rationalization they come up with can convince me that it’s anything other than horribly racist.

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 12:02 pm |

    [quote comment="329396"]So you’d contrast this and that. Got it.[/quote]

    I’m saying that Indians and Redskins refer to an entire race, but most other names are about subgroups or individuals.
    Chiefs sort of equates to Presidents or Generals.
    Braves to MinuteMen, Patriots or, even, Commandos.
    Seminoles and Illini to, say, Irish.
    Black Hawks to a specific individual.
    (not sports, but Pontiac also was a particular individual).

    So I’m asking–NOT advocating—about the possible existence of a line somewhere where it becomes apparent that there WAS an intent to recognize the accomplishments and attributes of a certain group of individuals, and not stereotype an entire ethnic group.

    I honestly don’t know the answer, but the question occurs to me.

    —Ricko

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 12:04 pm |

    [quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Well… I know where you can get some real pulled pork Carolina BBQ. Outside the RBC Center next weekend as the Canes are kicking the Pens’ asses up and down the ice!

    :-)

  • ChrisMilea | May 15, 2009 at 12:06 pm |

    Why do the Mets keep wearing their home uniforms ( although they are black and ugly ) on the road. They did it in St.Louis and then again last nite in SF. ( Not sure how to add link to photos but I’m sure you noticed )Please make them stop.

  • DJ | May 15, 2009 at 12:08 pm |

    I haven’t read or heard anywhere that Notre Dame has dropped the “Fighting” in “Fighting Irish.” Is this a fact?

    No, it’s still “Fighting Irish.” You’ll see “Irish” on the uniforms and merchandise simply because it saves space.

  • DJ | May 15, 2009 at 12:10 pm |

    But how about calling them the “Maccabees”? Would, or would not, that be acceptable?

    I presume you’re thinking of Yeshiva University in New York, whose athletic teams use that name.

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 12:10 pm |

    [quote comment="329399"][quote comment="329390"]
    How many Canadians and Europeans play for the Rochester Americans? I demand, as a non-American, that the name be changed![/quote]
    At the risk of taking this discussion into the realm of all-out silliness, I’d like to point out that 5 out of the 7 captains/alternates on the Canadiens and Canucks are not even from Canada.

    There are two from Finland, two from the USA and a Russian (Saku Koivu, Mattias Ohlund, Mike Komisarek, Ryan Kesler and Alexei Kovalev). Hell, the Canucks’ captain can’t even wear the C on his sweater, so I say only one of six is Canadian.[/quote]
    Gah! Mattias Ohlund is not from Finland. He’s Swedish. What the hell is wrong with me? It doesn’t even sound like a Finnish name.

    But the fact remains that he isn’t Canadian.

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 12:12 pm |

    [quote comment="329403"][quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Well… I know where you can get some real pulled pork Carolina BBQ. Outside the RBC Center next weekend as the Canes are kicking the Pens’ asses up and down the ice!

    :-)[/quote]

    Since I would rather watch field turf grow than talk about hockey, I guess that I’ll weigh in on the chip debate…

    ‘Tato Skins were my alltime favorite
    with Utz Crab chips coming in a close second.

    The only pretzels that are makin’ me thirsty are Kidzels by Bachman.

  • Wollen1 | May 15, 2009 at 12:12 pm |

    No way! The Lions somehow f—ed up something? I’m not buying it.

    I hope that someday Tim Brulia can put pictures or mock-ups on his project. That would be truly bad ass.

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 12:16 pm |

    [quote comment="329406"]But how about calling them the “Maccabees”? Would, or would not, that be acceptable?

    I presume you’re thinking of Yeshiva University in New York, whose athletic teams use that name.[/quote]

    Didn’t know that.

    Also was thinking, how much can “Sioux” be said to equate to “Celtics”?

    —Ricko

  • Mike Engle | May 15, 2009 at 12:17 pm |

    [quote comment="329404"]Why do the Mets keep wearing their home uniforms ( although they are black and ugly ) on the road. They did it in St.Louis and then again last nite in SF. ( Not sure how to add link to photos but I’m sure you noticed )Please make them stop.[/quote]
    Those are black alternates, for home AND road use. The black NEW YORK tops just got axed this year.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 12:28 pm |

    [quote]Please make them stop[/quote]

    from your lips to god’s ears

  • Big Al | May 15, 2009 at 12:32 pm |

    Two excellent reads –> the NYT article on the Candela Structures and the feedback Paul gathered from Vets re: the camo uniforms.

  • Casey (Davis, CA) | May 15, 2009 at 12:36 pm |

    For all you hockey fans, please read this article and vote in favor of Time Magazine continuing to cover hockey:

    http://www.time.com/...

  • Kek | May 15, 2009 at 12:38 pm |

    [quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Not sure…Synders must have monopoly of anything larger than a snack pack!

    if you’re ever an hour and a half east, stop in Johnstown. Their Giant Eagle stores have the full size bags.

    Crab chip baby! (not knocking carolina BBQ because that’s good too!)

  • Paul Lukas | May 15, 2009 at 12:38 pm |

    Candela coverage from The Sporting News:
    http://www.sportingn...

  • Bernard | May 15, 2009 at 12:53 pm |

    [quote comment="329403"][quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Well… I know where you can get some real pulled pork Carolina BBQ. Outside the RBC Center next weekend as the Canes are kicking the Pens’ asses up and down the ice!

    :-)[/quote]

    Haha! Usually, I prefer blowouts (like the Pens’ dismantling of the Craps in game 7), but I think for this series, I’ll be praying for nailbiters (see post #47). :)

    I’m kidding, of course. I’m looking for more blowouts.

  • Bernard | May 15, 2009 at 12:54 pm |

    [quote comment="329415"][quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Not sure…Synders must have monopoly of anything larger than a snack pack!

    if you’re ever an hour and a half east, stop in Johnstown. Their Giant Eagle stores have the full size bags.

    Crab chip baby! (not knocking carolina BBQ because that’s good too!)[/quote]

    Good call, Kek. Hmmm… I wonder if my folks can score some up in Indiana…

  • Squiddie | May 15, 2009 at 1:02 pm |

    Since we’ve been reading about the Candela structures

    Felix Candela

    It’s a nice suit. Not sure about the tie.

  • Kek | May 15, 2009 at 1:11 pm |

    [quote comment="329418"][quote comment="329415"][quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Not sure…Synders must have monopoly of anything larger than a snack pack!

    if you’re ever an hour and a half east, stop in Johnstown. Their Giant Eagle stores have the full size bags.

    Crab chip baby! (not knocking carolina BBQ because that’s good too!)[/quote]

    Good call, Kek. Hmmm… I wonder if my folks can score some up in Indiana…[/quote]
    That would be worth it, might be that the Sheetz stores sell them.

    According to the Utz website, they have a distribution center in Altoona which most likely services the Cambria County stores so it’s not out of the question that they might travel a little further west on PA-22 to Indiana.

    Growing up in J-town, I was spoiled by having Galliker’s Iced Tea at any and every store. When I moved to Pittsburgh in ’98, I quickly found out that the local dairy products just did not compare. Now there are a handful of Kmarts that sell Gallikers products but they are nowhere to be found most places and definitely not in grocery stores.

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:17 pm |

    [quote comment="329410"]
    Also was thinking, how much can “Sioux” be said to equate to “Celtics”?

    —Ricko[/quote]
    Don’t get me started on that. :-((((

    And Ricko, apropos of nothing except a comment from a few days ago: during WWII my father was also a member of Ship’s Company: US Naval Training Center, Great Lakes, Illinois. :-)

    He was out on the lake a few times on the USS Wilmette, a locally famous ship.

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 1:18 pm |

    Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with!

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:21 pm |

    [quote comment="329402"]
    Seminoles and Illini to, say, Irish.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    Ricko, the word “Illini” is a shortened version of a French word; and that French word is an attempt to translate the word “mankind” or “humankind” from the Native language.

    In short, there never was a tribe named “Illini” or anything like that word.

  • Saru | May 15, 2009 at 1:21 pm |

    Regarding the Sioux name, it is a funny coincidence that the link for the article on MLS logos mentions the Chicago team refusing to allow Nike to name the team. Why couldn’t UND refuse to agree to Engelstad’s absurd requirements for his donation? Isn’t bowing before the almighty dollar something that gets roundly criticized on this site regularly? Engelstad has no more business dictating university policy than Nike does. It is just hard to feel sorry for a school that put itself between a tribe that has clearly stated it wants nothing to do with it and a nutter millionaire.

    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:28 pm |

    [quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 1:28 pm |

    [quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]
    The Nats haven’t fucked up in a week or so, the NHL and NBA is winding down, MLB has pretty much already unveiled everything for this year, for the most part the NFL unveilings are complete, and the annual Eastbay college football uni-leak is at least a month away…

    this is the uni-dead period of the year…

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 1:30 pm |

    [quote comment="329425"][quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.[/quote]
    And the tribes have the right to change their mind.

  • Beardface | May 15, 2009 at 1:32 pm |

    [quote comment="329427"][quote comment="329425"][quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.[/quote]
    And the tribes have the right to change their mind.[/quote]
    I guarantee you the ‘change of mind’ had to do with money…

  • Kek | May 15, 2009 at 1:34 pm |

    [quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]
    Sorry to bore you Powers….hey, I know, make a DIY hockey jersey of the Utz logo: http://farm3.static....

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:35 pm |

    [quote comment="329372"]I’m pretty sure that you’re right and the money from Englestad was on condition that they kept the name. In my opinion that only tarnishes the association – in an era when the epithet is so casually thrown around as to lose its punch, the man is a genuine wannabe Nazi.[/quote]
    I don’t claim to be an expert on Englested, but calling him a Nazi wannabe is overstating the situation.

    A collector of WWII memorbilia, undoubtedly. But he’s no more of a “wannabe” than a lot of other people who donate items to a museum; either Prince Harry or William (whichever one dressed up for Halloween), or Marge Schott.

    Jumping from that to calling someone a racist or ethnic-ist or whatever is a huge leap.

  • Eric | May 15, 2009 at 1:35 pm |

    [quote comment="329327"]Speaking of the Nationals and the Walgreens’ W, I noticed this article in the Times this morning.

    I presume the logo isn’t stolen, as MLB has been very tough with Little Leagues using their logos without permission. I really hope George Washington High is using it under license….[/quote]

    My High School in CA went to the Senators old “Curvy W” in the early 90’s in gold on a black hat. Of course, there were no Nationals at the time, and I don’t think the TX Rangers were defending that logo much.

    I remember thinking how dumb it looked since all other W’s at the school were always Block style (think U of Washington), and mentioning the Senators rip off, none of my friends knew what I was talking about . . .

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 1:36 pm |

    [quote comment="329425"][quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.[/quote]

    I feel the need to take a moment to point out that the majority is not always right. That’s why we have a representative government. Just because most people want something, doesn’t mean it is the right thing to do. In this case, what is right is up for debate (obviously), but I think with moral dilemmas such as this, it is a cop-out to say, “well the majority voted for it, so it must be the right thing to do.”

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 1:37 pm |

    [quote comment="329425"][quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.[/quote]

    i direct you to the third section of this little ditty by alexis de tocqueville…

    just because it’s a two-to-one ratio doesn’t mean it’s right

    /playing devils advocate, slightly, here…just sayin’

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:37 pm |

    [quote comment="329427"]And the tribes have the right to change their mind.[/quote]

    Yep.

    Considering the referendum I mentioned was held less than a month ago, they certainly do.(This is the “rolleyes” emoticon.)

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 1:38 pm |

    nice post joe s ;)

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:40 pm |

    [quote comment="329433"]
    just because it’s a two-to-one ratio doesn’t mean it’s right
    [/quote]Nor does it mean that its wrong.

    And the decision was made by an NCAA comittee on a vote. De Tocquiville wasn’t on the committtee as far as I know.

    My original post was about getting something crammed down your throat. If a vote from either April or May doesn’t prove anything to you, then a De Tocquville quote doesn’t prove anything to me.

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 1:41 pm |

    [quote comment="329426"][quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]
    The Nats haven’t fucked up in a week or so, the NHL and NBA is winding down, MLB has pretty much already unveiled everything for this year, for the most part the NFL unveilings are complete, and the annual Eastbay college football uni-leak is at least a month away…

    this is the uni-dead period of the year…[/quote]

    Here’s something: I’m getting my softball team together to start next month and I want to have a new team name and possibly new color(s). The last two years we were the Urban Achievers, but I feel that joke is getting a bit played out (if you don’t know what I’m talking about, watch The Big Lebowski). So someone come up with a team identity and color scheme for a rag-tag bunch of amateurs. I expect full color logos, wordmarks and uniform mock-ups. GO!

  • Ry Co 40 | May 15, 2009 at 1:41 pm |

    [quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]

    matt, all kidding aside, i’m surprised you don’t like hockey all that much…

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 1:43 pm |

    [quote comment="329432"]“well the majority voted for it, so it must be the right thing to do.”[/quote]If the majority voted the way the “cram down their throat” poster wanted them to, I would suggest that that referendum would be held up as “proof” of the tribal intent.

    And somewhere up the line, the pronouncement was made that “the only thing that matters is what the two tribes want”. No reference to right or wrong in that post, was there?

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 1:51 pm |

    [quote comment="329435"]nice post joe s ;)[/quote]
    Funny, we had the exact same thought. I only beat you to it because you bothered to take the time to cite a reference. You rookie, this is the internet, we don’t need references!

  • mmwatkin | May 15, 2009 at 2:02 pm |

    [quote comment="329416"]Candela coverage from The Sporting News:
    http://www.sportingn...

    If you are looking for leftovers from the World’s fair, there is always the “World’s Largest Tire” outside of Detroit…which was constructed from the ferris wheel at the fair.

    http://www.roadsidea...

  • Zach | May 15, 2009 at 2:09 pm |

    Nike has done it again!

    http://www.theonion....

  • Jonee | May 15, 2009 at 2:10 pm |

    The Times article is really great. Nice work, Lukas. I believe that bullpen buggy is a Harley Topper, the scooter Harley-Davidson made for a few years.

  • Bernard | May 15, 2009 at 2:19 pm |

    [quote comment="329432"][quote comment="329425"][quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.[/quote]

    I feel the need to take a moment to point out that the majority is not always right. That’s why we have a representative government. Just because most people want something, doesn’t mean it is the right thing to do. In this case, what is right is up for debate (obviously), but I think with moral dilemmas such as this, it is a cop-out to say, “well the majority voted for it, so it must be the right thing to do.”[/quote]

    I guess we know who JoeS and LI Phil voted for in ’00 and ’04, huh? :)

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 2:28 pm |

    [quote comment="329438"][quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]

    matt, all kidding aside, i’m surprised you don’t like hockey all that much…[/quote]

    I haven’t given it a chance…and to be honest, I’m just stirring the pot a bit.

    Playoff Hockey IS very exciting, I will give you all that.

    Here’s a question…If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?

    I say no….whatch y’all think?

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 2:35 pm |

    [quote comment="329445"][quote comment="329438"][quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]

    matt, all kidding aside, i’m surprised you don’t like hockey all that much…[/quote]

    I haven’t given it a chance…and to be honest, I’m just stirring the pot a bit.

    Playoff Hockey IS very exciting, I will give you all that.

    Here’s a question…If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?

    I say no….whatch y’all think?[/quote]

    A buddy of mine wears his Pittsburgh Penguins’ Satan jersey to work all the time.

    Nothing is said of it.

    And stop stirring the pot. Otherwise, I’ll bring up your overly-female shoe obsession. ;o) LOL

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 2:35 pm |

    [quote]If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?[/quote]

    male or female?

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 2:40 pm |

    [quote comment="329447"][quote]If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?[/quote]

    male or female?[/quote]
    Wocka wocka wocka!

    Last summer, I’d have said that you need to burn that thing. This year, he’s hitting .340, so it can stay on.

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 2:43 pm |

    BTW, have the Cubs ever had a red alternate?

  • Brian | May 15, 2009 at 2:47 pm |

    I don’t know if anyone posted this, but the Phillies visited the White House today and gave President Obama a #44 jersey with the special gold trim…

    http://www.thefighti...

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 2:48 pm |

    [quote comment="329450"]How appropriate considering today’s discussion over the Sioux.[/quote]

    from the article:

    [quote]The Washington Redskins won another legal victory Friday in a 17-year fight with a group of American Indians who contend the NFL team’s trademark is racially offensive. … Club lawyer Bob Raskopf said … “It’s a great day for the Redskins and their fans and their owner Dan Snyder,”[/quote]

    indeed

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 2:50 pm |

    [quote comment="329428"][quote comment="329427"][quote comment="329425"][quote comment="329424"]
    Oh, and I don’t see how you can cram an “honor” down someone’s throat. If they don’t want it, it ain’t an honor.[/quote]
    One of the two tribes in question in North Dakota voted to “accept” the honor: the ratio was about 2-1, which would be described as a landslide victory in most political elections.

    Nothing is being crammed down anyone’s throat in that connection. Quite the opposite.[/quote]
    And the tribes have the right to change their mind.[/quote]
    I guarantee you the ‘change of mind’ had to do with money…[/quote]

    You may be right.

    Doesn’t matter.

  • Matt Guerra | May 15, 2009 at 2:50 pm |

    Hey Guys,

    I’ve been following the past couple of days regarding dark alts for baseball teams, and I pretty much have to agree they all suck big time. Especially the Mets'; they’re brutal. But I have to admit a soft spot for the Royals’ powder blues, and powder blue in general. Am I the only one?

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 2:51 pm |

    [quote comment="329452"][quote comment="329450"]How appropriate considering today’s discussion over the Sioux.[/quote]

    from the article:

    [quote]The Washington Redskins won another legal victory Friday in a 17-year fight with a group of American Indians who contend the NFL team’s trademark is racially offensive. … Club lawyer Bob Raskopf said … “It’s a great day for the Redskins and their fans and their owner Dan Snyder,”[/quote]

    indeed[/quote]

    Surprisingly, Phil, no judge has made a decision based upon the racial commentary. It’s simply a case of trademarks.

    I’m going to trademark “whiteboy” this afternoon so I can use it on everything I produce. LOL

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 2:52 pm |

    [quote comment="329449"]BTW, have the Cubs ever had a red alternate?[/quote]
    Jersey? No.

    Cap? Yes (early ’30s).

  • Kek | May 15, 2009 at 2:55 pm |

    [quote comment="329446"][quote comment="329445"][quote comment="329438"][quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]

    matt, all kidding aside, i’m surprised you don’t like hockey all that much…[/quote]

    I haven’t given it a chance…and to be honest, I’m just stirring the pot a bit.

    Playoff Hockey IS very exciting, I will give you all that.

    Here’s a question…If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?

    I say no….whatch y’all think?[/quote]

    A buddy of mine wears his Pittsburgh Penguins’ Satan jersey to work all the time.

    Nothing is said of it.

    And stop stirring the pot. Otherwise, I’ll bring up your overly-female shoe obsession. ;o) LOL[/quote]
    Tebbz, my brother has always been a huge Satan fan. Naturally when he signed with the Pens I went and got him a t-shirt jersey for his August birthday. (Obviously we all thought and wished he would have performed better for the club, although he had some nice plays in the Caps’ series).

    Over Labor Day weekend, we were at this ethnic festival that all the churches of one neighborhood in Johnstown participate in, making ethnic dishes and such.

    So we’re sitting in the church rec room eating and my buddy says “dude, you do realize you’re sitting in a church building with a shirt that says SATAN?”

  • Mark in Shiga | May 15, 2009 at 2:57 pm |

    [quote comment="329456"][quote comment="329449"]BTW, have the Cubs ever had a red alternate?[/quote]
    Jersey? No.

    Cap? Yes (early ’30s).[/quote]

    There’s a fake red “alternate” with white-trimmed blue numbers on the back that seems to find its way on to eBay all the time; don’t be fooled.

    And as for the Fukudome jersey, what problem could there possibly be? That’s the guy’s name, and the fact that part of it happens to resemble an English obscenity (in spelling, not in pronunciation) is meaningless. Surely all of our names can be connected to something dirty in some language in the world.

    (Of course, the Cubs could solve this problem for everyone by wearing number-only jerseys as God intended.)

  • mike 2 | May 15, 2009 at 3:01 pm |

    [quote comment="329452"][quote comment="329450"]How appropriate considering today’s discussion over the Sioux.[/quote]

    from the article:

    [quote]The Washington Redskins won another legal victory Friday in a 17-year fight with a group of American Indians who contend the NFL team’s trademark is racially offensive. … Club lawyer Bob Raskopf said … “It’s a great day for the Redskins and their fans and their owner Dan Snyder,”[/quote]

    indeed[/quote]

    The team (I can’t even type the word) won on a limitations issue – the plaintiffs in the 1999 case waited too long to sue.

    I don’t know much about U.S. statutes of limitations, but if they’re like Canada’s, the indians can start a new action tomorrow with younger plaintiffs and the USPTO has already ruled (in the previous case) that the trademark should be struck out. The team will be back in the court soon enough.

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 3:05 pm |

    [quote comment="329457"]
    So we’re sitting in the church rec room eating and my buddy says “dude, you do realize you’re sitting in a church building with a shirt that says SATAN?”[/quote]

    I’d attend church in a Satan jersey if the Penguins were playing. LOL

    Seriously, I don’t think anyone at his work knows who Satan (the hockey player) is.

  • Lou | May 15, 2009 at 3:05 pm |

    The Mets are running a uniform opinion questionnaire that I just received via email as a Flushing Flah subscriber. They are soliciting opinions about the black jerseys and asking for opinions on some new alternate jerseys; most of which are hideous.

    Here is the link: [url]http://link.mlblists.com/r/789OQD/MGQJ6/RPY928/HACHA/V15A2D/XL/h?a=partnerId=ed-2537650-82761024%26source=ed-2537650-82761024[/url]

    Vote to ditch the black!

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 3:07 pm |

    [quote comment="329459"]
    I don’t know much about U.S. statutes of limitations, but if they’re like Canada’s, the indians can start a new action tomorrow with younger plaintiffs and the USPTO has already ruled (in the previous case) that the trademark should be struck out. The team will be back in the court soon enough.[/quote]

    There’s another group waiting in the wings for this trial to end. It’s only going to be weeks or months at most.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 3:10 pm |

    [quote comment="329455"]Surprisingly, Phil, no judge has made a decision based upon the racial commentary. It’s simply a case of trademarks.[/quote]

    not surprising at all…nor was i either saying or implying it was

    from that article:

    [quote]The judge did not address whether the Redskins name is offensive or racist. She wrote that her decision was not based on the larger issue of “the appropriateness of Native American imagery for team names.”[/quote]

    i was just highlighting that “It’s a great day for the Redskins, their fans, and their owner, Dan Snyder” quote

    i love how the redskins lawyer basically said “you should have filed this suit in 1967″ (tbss)

    yep…they’re dancin’ all the way to the bank

  • rpm | May 15, 2009 at 3:16 pm |

    i love a lot of the indian mascot imagery, i will say that first. but i am sorry, if i had to lump all indian mascots together, you can chalk me up in the get rid of all the native american mascot’s camp. sure, i think if the logo image used is noble, these teams can be seen as offering a fine tribute to a proud people, but it isn’t really up to me to decide, my opinion is meaningless, because i am not the one offended, nobody ever gave my ancestors small pox infested blankets, or made them walk a trail of tears, etc. maybe if there were not names like redskins and images like chief wahoo, the keep the indian names camp would have a stronger leg to stand on with regards to the tribute tip.

    but the real story here that everybody is forgetting is that birds of prey everywhere are up in arms over the offensive nature of some bird mscots, we should do away with them too.

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 3:17 pm |

    [quote comment="329461"]The Mets are running a uniform opinion questionnaire that I just received via email as a Flushing Flah subscriber. They are soliciting opinions about the black jerseys and asking for opinions on some new alternate jerseys; most of which are hideous.

    Here is the link: [url]http://link.mlblists.com/r/789OQD/MGQJ6/RPY928/HACHA/V15A2D/XL/h?a=partnerId=ed-2537650-82761024%26source=ed-2537650-82761024[/url]

    Vote to ditch the black![/quote]
    They’re considering cream-colored pins?

    By the way, I voted for the shittiest option every time. I wouldn’t want Paul or Phil to run out of things to write about.

  • Ry Co 40 | May 15, 2009 at 3:24 pm |

    [quote comment="329445"][quote comment="329438"][quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]

    matt, all kidding aside, i’m surprised you don’t like hockey all that much…[/quote]

    I haven’t given it a chance…and to be honest, I’m just stirring the pot a bit.

    Playoff Hockey IS very exciting, I will give you all that.

    Here’s a question…If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?

    I say no….whatch y’all think?[/quote]

    not at all. he’s wearing a players jersey

  • chance michaels | May 15, 2009 at 3:25 pm |

    [quote comment="329461"]The Mets are running a uniform opinion questionnaire that I just received via email as a Flushing Flah subscriber. They are soliciting opinions about the black jerseys and asking for opinions on some new alternate jerseys; most of which are hideous.

    Here is the link: [url]http://link.mlblists.com/r/789OQD/MGQJ6/RPY928/HACHA/V15A2D/XL/h?a=partnerId=ed-2537650-82761024%26source=ed-2537650-82761024[/url]

    Vote to ditch the black![/quote]

    I did.

    Here are the most hideous alts, of all the options:

    http://turnkeyintell...

    http://turnkeyintell...

  • MPowers1634 | May 15, 2009 at 3:26 pm |

    [quote comment="329466"][quote comment="329445"][quote comment="329438"][quote comment="329422"]Soda and Chip watch…Phil, LWeidy, Ricko throw us something to work with![/quote]

    matt, all kidding aside, i’m surprised you don’t like hockey all that much…[/quote]

    I haven’t given it a chance…and to be honest, I’m just stirring the pot a bit.

    Playoff Hockey IS very exciting, I will give you all that.

    Here’s a question…If a student were to wear a Fukudome jersey to school, should the student be forced to remove it?

    I say no….whatch y’all think?[/quote]

    not at all. he’s wearing a players jersey[/quote]

    Would any of you wear it to work on a casual day?

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 3:28 pm |

    [quote comment="329468"]
    Would any of you wear it to work on a casual day?[/quote]

    I have my Hartford Whalers t-shirt on right now, and my Manitoba Moose jersey is draped over the back of my chair as I prepare for Game One of the Western Conference Final.

    I’m going with a big “yes”. :o)

  • Cory | May 15, 2009 at 3:29 pm |

    I’m all for teams having decency in naming and branding, but what are the possible legal ramifications of such naming? If I wanted to name my sports team the “dirty niggers” couldn’t I? Obviously no one would support me but that’s the point. These things should change when the culture supports it and endorses it. We should be striving to change attitudes and opinions, not turning to legal recourse or have the NCAA enforce things.

    To be honest i don’t understand the whole demonizing of native american team names, i mean is it really that offensive to be called the fighting sioux? would the fighting germans or the fighting spaniards be offensive?

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 3:34 pm |

    [quote]would the fighting germans or the fighting spaniards be offensive?[/quote]

    what about the ‘fighting french’?

  • Dan | May 15, 2009 at 3:35 pm |

    Some great historical Chicago Blackhawks photos on the tribune’s site today. The photo of Bobby Hull sprawled out reaching for the puck is spectacular….some other nice ones as well.

    http://www.chicagotr...

  • DenverGregg | May 15, 2009 at 3:45 pm |

    [quote comment="329471"][quote]would the fighting germans or the fighting spaniards be offensive?[/quote]

    what about the ‘fighting french’?[/quote]
    They wear brown pants.

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 3:52 pm |

    As long as today seems to be the day to throw out random quotes from 19th century French philosophers in support of our own ideas about when it’s “wise” to disregard democracy, here’s a few more I have seen recently cited in the press:

    When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

    There is hardly a political question in the United States which does not sooner or later turn into a judicial one.

  • Mark in Shiga | May 15, 2009 at 3:57 pm |

    I just filled out that Mets uniform survey, with heavy support for jerseys that include piping as opposed to non-piped jerseys.

    They don’t show the backs of any of these jerseys, and thus don’t give you the opportunity to express support for the classic NNOB style that they used in 1999 (and pre-late-’70s). Particularly with those unnecessary shadows on the numbers, the NOBs really look bad.

    And you don’t get to vote for a return of the ice-cream man caps!

  • rpm | May 15, 2009 at 4:00 pm |

    [quote comment="329471"][quote]would the fighting germans or the fighting spaniards be offensive?[/quote]

    what about the ‘fighting french’?[/quote]

    fighting germans, yes sort of. it conjures up an image of germans only being like, well the nazi’s. and as a proud german, i know i am more then that. sort of like the fighting irish giving you the stereotypical mental image of a drunken irishman fighting in the public house. subtle i know, but subtly offensive too. not that i personally feel the fightin’s should be dropped from any team name, i am just devil’s advocating on this one, i think that is going too far. but, to articulate the point…”fratboy”, not so offensive, but if i plop a “daterapping” infront of that “fratboy”, i imply that all fratboys are roofy sneaking scumbags, and that isn’t the case.

  • mike 2 | May 15, 2009 at 4:01 pm |

    [quote comment="329470"]I’m all for teams having decency in naming and branding, but what are the possible legal ramifications of such naming? If I wanted to name my sports team the “dirty niggers” couldn’t I? …

    [/quote]

    You’re asking the wrong question:

    1. Can you call your team that? absolutely.

    2. Can you have a federal trademark which gives you the exclusive right to use that name? no.

    At the end of the day the Washington trademark litigation is about money. If they lose their trademark, then anyone can make gear branded with their logo and they can’t do anything about it (or make any money off it). And then I guarantee you they’ll change the name to something they can trademark so that they can keep that revenue stream.

  • M.Princip | May 15, 2009 at 4:07 pm |

    [quote comment="329350"][quote comment="329345"][quote] “Fighting Sioux” is no more offensive than “Redskins”[/quote]

    wait…what?[/quote]

    Yah, gotta admit even as 10-year-old I thought “Redskins” was over the line.

    Of course, considering who OWNED the team when the change was made from Boston Braves to Boston Redskins, it does suggest a certain insensitivity to such things.

    Doesn’t forgive it mind, just explains it.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Washington Braves………..done deal. Next.

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 4:08 pm |

    [quote comment="329475"]I just filled out that Mets uniform survey, with heavy support for jerseys that include piping as opposed to non-piped jerseys.

    They don’t show the backs of any of these jerseys, and thus don’t give you the opportunity to express support for the classic NNOB style that they used in 1999 (and pre-late-’70s). Particularly with those unnecessary shadows on the numbers, the NOBs really look bad.

    And you don’t get to vote for a return of the ice-cream man caps![/quote]
    Despite my assertion earlier that I voted for the worst option every time, I actually voted the way I really feel (blue cap, “neither” when presented with the options on the alts, piping over non-piping, white pins over cream pins). At the end, in the free-form text, I posted a couple paragraphs about how bad the dropshadows and the black alts look. I forgot to mention the black caps. Damn.

    One thing I liked about that survey is that they asked the follow-up question as to why I think they need to get rid of the black alts.

  • Mr. Harrington | May 15, 2009 at 4:09 pm |

    [quote comment="329382"][quote comment="329378"][quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko –

    I can’t see the picture you are referring to, however i suppose it would depend on where exactly the paint is located. From what I have read today, the contention is that the gold is caused by the discoloration of the plastic shell, more so than the discoloration of the paint. If this is the case then your theory may not hold true if the silver is at a point on the helmet where it can be viewed directly with no distortion from the plastic.

    If not, then disregard my post.[/quote]

    Yeah, forgot about the plastic coating stuff. Would they have coated the inside, too? Anybody? Cuz it’s turned gold, too.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko-
    I think you need to take another look. The shell is a gray color. The “gold” you see is the padding. Look around the inner ear hole, it’s easy to see.

  • LarryB | May 15, 2009 at 4:11 pm |

    I know I have a screen grab or so and the Lions or at least one or 2 of them had gold helmets. I showed my brother and said look at this.The Lions had a gold helmet the same time other wore silver.

    I have been busy today and have to run soon. Later tonight I will find the grabs and also check out 2 other dvds we have of the Browns vs Lions in 1952 and 1953. Both are in color. I forget how good the quality of the film or color is.
    Anyhow after I find out I will email Paul and Phil what I find out.

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 4:20 pm |

    [quote comment="329474"]As long as today seems to be the day to throw out random quotes from 19th century French philosophers in support of our own ideas about when it’s “wise” to disregard democracy, here’s a few more I have seen recently cited in the press:

    When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

    There is hardly a political question in the United States which does not sooner or later turn into a judicial one. [/quote]

    Whoa. Get defensive much?

  • Not Osama | May 15, 2009 at 4:37 pm |

    Ricko,
    The interior of the Bobby Layne / Riddell is grey because after they sprayed the interior silver they would ‘seal’ the paint with a battleship grey coat. Riddell did this with all of there Tenite helmets as did other clear shell manufacturuers like Macgregor, MaxPro and Kelley.
    Also, remember on clear shell helmets such as this, they apply the helmets paint to its interior not the exterior and then rivet in the suspension. The silver stripe on the exterior was either painted silver or impregnated silver plastic (NOT clear shell tenite). It is a separate piece of hard plastic.(Tenite is extremely soft and pliable which was one of its flaws) This center plastic strip held the helmet together as these RT Riddell helmets were put together from two piece molds.
    Finally, all clear shell plastic helmets yellow with age and the Tenite model seem even more inclined to it (which is another of its flaws).
    P.S.
    As far as the photos of Layne go, they look silver in some and gold in others so I would chalk it up to the much less precise qualities of the fifties photos not to mention lighting, time of day, etc. I do a lot of research on helmets and find it very difficult to match colors, hues with old school (or new school) photography and therefore do not ‘bank’ on photography to confirm or deny.

  • Matt Guerra | May 15, 2009 at 4:43 pm |

    [quote comment="329479"][quote comment="329475"]I just filled out that Mets uniform survey, with heavy support for jerseys that include piping as opposed to non-piped jerseys.

    They don’t show the backs of any of these jerseys, and thus don’t give you the opportunity to express support for the classic NNOB style that they used in 1999 (and pre-late-’70s). Particularly with those unnecessary shadows on the numbers, the NOBs really look bad.

    And you don’t get to vote for a return of the ice-cream man caps![/quote]
    Despite my assertion earlier that I voted for the worst option every time, I actually voted the way I really feel (blue cap, “neither” when presented with the options on the alts, piping over non-piping, white pins over cream pins). At the end, in the free-form text, I posted a couple paragraphs about how bad the dropshadows and the black alts look. I forgot to mention the black caps. Damn.

    One thing I liked about that survey is that they asked the follow-up question as to why I think they need to get rid of the black alts.[/quote]

    I checked “other” and wrote in “all of the above.” My final comment was simply “ditch the black!” I hope something comes of this. Maybe the Mets will remember they have blue caps, at least.

  • JTH | May 15, 2009 at 4:52 pm |

    [quote comment="329472"]Some great historical Chicago Blackhawks photos on the tribune’s site today. The photo of Bobby Hull sprawled out reaching for the puck is spectacular….some other nice ones as well.

    http://www.chicagotr...
    Nice (DIY?) uni pic of some guy that was apparently at yesterday’s Cubs/Padres game linked on that page as well.

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 5:03 pm |

    [quote comment="329482"]Whoa. Get defensive much?[/quote]Yeah, something like that.

    Thanks for adding this. Very helpful. How about yourself, BTW?

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 5:04 pm |

    Hey JTH, I saw your comment on Ed Farmer yesterday. I just liked the “long pause” part. That happens a lot with the Sox radio crew.

  • The Fonz | May 15, 2009 at 5:07 pm |

    are the mets thinking about ditching the black??

    http://www.metsblog....

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 5:10 pm |

    [quote comment="329487"]Hey JTH, I saw your comment on Ed Farmer yesterday. I just liked the “long pause” part. That happens a lot with the Sox radio crew.[/quote]And now that I look, I see you responded. Yep, Hawker wears his heart on his sleeve as much as anyone: a huge problem when you’re supposed to be doing PbP.

    (And that’s the real problem with Sox broadcasts: no true PbP guys since Rooney was fired.)

  • pflava | May 15, 2009 at 5:14 pm |

    [quote]Nice (DIY?) uni pic of some guy that was apparently at yesterday’s Cubs/Padres game linked on that page as well.[/quote]

    I love it! That guy is awesome.

    As for the Mets, I’m not a fan but I just went and filled out that questionnaire – all blue caps, didn’t like most of those hideous alternates, voted for the cream home white pinstripes, and in the comments said they should get rid of every bit of black in their uniforms including the drop shadows.

  • JoeS | May 15, 2009 at 5:17 pm |

    [quote comment="329486"][quote comment="329482"]Whoa. Get defensive much?[/quote]Yeah, something like that.

    Thanks for adding this. Very helpful. How about yourself, BTW?[/quote]

    Ok, ok. I deserve that one. I should have just left it alone. Obviously this is a controversial subject, so things like this are bound to happen. So, no hard feelings. Have a great weekend everyone.

    Peace.

  • Carl | May 15, 2009 at 5:20 pm |

    [quote comment="329414"]For all you hockey fans, please read this article and vote in favor of Time Magazine continuing to cover hockey:

    http://www.time.com/...

    F*&$ing Montana. Bunch of hosers.

  • Chris A | May 15, 2009 at 5:38 pm |

    [quote comment="329318"]University of North Dakota is retiring the nickname “Sioux” and the Indianhead logo.

    They have been the Sioux since 1930.

    Prior to that they were the Flickertails, which is a small deer, I guess.

    —Ricko[/quote]
    One thing to remember – the Fighting Sioux’s hockey arena, Ralph Engelstad Arena has this legacy:
    Engelstad embroiled himself in the fight over the Fighting Sioux logo when he built a $100 million arena on the University of North Dakota campus for the Fighting Sioux hockey program. Midway in its construction, Engelstad threatened to withdraw funding if the long standing nickname were to be changed.[3] The logo was placed in thousands of instances in the arena, making the prospect of removal a costly measure. Later, Engelstad placed the stadium under private (rather than University) management and stipulated that the Fighting Sioux motif be kept indefinitely. An Engelstad family trust continues to own the arena and rents it to the University. (Wikipedia)

    Englestad passed away in 2002 – but this has been an issue for YEARS!

    Conversely, my fantasy football team has been the Fighting Sioux for the past 4 years – 3 championships. The Fighting Sioux WILL live on!!!!

  • Chris A | May 15, 2009 at 5:40 pm |

    Random thought – can a list be generated with the player(s) with the best representation of stirrups per each team in the major leagues?

    I’m watching this ’83 Phils/Cards game on ESPN Classic and clearly there is NO ONE in this game – lest this era – who would qualify.

  • Jim Bullard | May 15, 2009 at 5:53 pm |

    [quote comment="329372"][quote comment="329364"][quote comment="329359"]
    i disagree…unless teebz feels ‘fighting sioux’ is EXTREMELY offensive…then it would be no more offensive than ‘redskins’[/quote]

    No, you got it. I think that the name “Fighting Sioux” could lose a word, but it would be akin to naming the team after someone in particular to honour that person and his/her achievements.

    Aside from their terrible play in recent years, who wasn’t an Islander fan? Phil, does the term “Islander” bother you? I’m guessing no. And you’d probably punch me in the mouth for suggesting as much. lol

    But the term “Sioux” is only used in the most respectful of terms in North Dakota (from what I’ve seen and heard), so I don’t see how the leaders of the Sioux tribes can claim is disrespectful.

    And what of Ralph Englestad Arena? Wasn’t that a clause in him donating the money to build that palace – keep them the “Sioux”?[/quote]

    It doesn’t matter what you or I think about the “respectful” nature of the Sioux nickname. Or what the University intended, for that matter. The only thing which matters is what the tribe thinks, and the tribe, through its elected leaders, has decided that they don’t want the “honor.”

    I’m pretty sure that you’re right and the money from Englestad was on condition that they kept the name. In my opinion that only tarnishes the association – in an era when the epithet is so casually thrown around as to lose its punch, the man is a genuine wannabe Nazi.[/quote]

    I don’t see how that rationale makes any sense. The Sioux Tribe voted that they don’t “want the honor” so the University should have to change its name? What the tribe thinks is not the only thing that matters, what matters is that we are devolving into a society that takes offense to anything and everything, thus tarnishing those traditions and history that we hold dear.

  • Carl | May 15, 2009 at 5:55 pm |

    [quote comment="329410"][quote comment="329406"]But how about calling them the “Maccabees”? Would, or would not, that be acceptable?

    I presume you’re thinking of Yeshiva University in New York, whose athletic teams use that name.[/quote]

    Didn’t know that.

    Also was thinking, how much can “Sioux” be said to equate to “Celtics”?

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Interesting point. Or the Aztecs? Or Utes?

    Either way, there’s a lot going on here – history, misconceptions, insensitivity, money, pride etc. The school started using the Sioux name to honor the Tribe (and to rid themselves of the ridiculous nickname and colors – I think they were white & pink! Over time there have been some offensive uses and abuses of the tribe’s name. The old man (Engelstad) built the current cathedral to hockey arena, which costs somewhere around $120 million dollars – he also built the old barn arena. As the hockey (and football too!) program has become successful and now is one of the bigger revenue generators for Grand Forks. Yes, the school could have not accepted the gift of the building but the gift has allowed the university to pay for a huge number of other functions/programs.

    I have to wonder how much of this issue stems from the NCAA’s politically-correct stance and advocate groups capitalizing on that wave of “support.”

    Bottom line is that hockey (and sport in general) will lose a great uniform, logo, and lettermark to make a very small number of people a little more comfortable. Maybe they’ll change the Fighting Sioux to the Fighting Windbreaks or the Effin’ Cold Fighers or something more climatic to not upset anyone. Except arborists.

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 6:03 pm |

    [quote comment="329495"] The Sioux Tribe voted that they don’t “want the honor”…[/quote]

    But that’s the problem. They didn’t vote that way. The leaders of the two tribes who want the name changed are the people spearheading this movement in forcing the NCAA to force UND to change the name.

    The communities themselves actually endorse the name.

  • Mike Engle | May 15, 2009 at 6:10 pm |

    [quote comment="329497"][quote comment="329495"] The Sioux Tribe voted that they don’t “want the honor”…[/quote]

    But that’s the problem. They didn’t vote that way. The leaders of the two tribes who want the name changed are the people spearheading this movement in forcing the NCAA to force UND to change the name.

    The communities themselves actually endorse the name.[/quote]
    I’m smelling a No Mas t-shirt. “I Still Root for the Sioux.”
    (Alongside “I Still Call Them the Rainbows,” and/or “I Still Call Them the Redmen” for the St. John’s crowd.)

  • Teebz | May 15, 2009 at 6:39 pm |

    The Abbotsford AHL franchise now has a name. And it’s closely related to the Flames.

    Your newest AHL relocation is now the Abbotsford Heat.

    Miami residents have no comment.

  • Ricko | May 15, 2009 at 6:42 pm |

    [quote comment="329471"][quote]would the fighting germans or the fighting spaniards be offensive?[/quote]

    what about the ‘fighting french’?[/quote]

    Ah, yes, the Vichy Capitulators. One of the unique teams of all time. Their entire schedule was bye weeks. Team motto was, “If you don’t stop that right now, you can just take away our ball and we’ll go home.”

  • Squiddie | May 15, 2009 at 6:46 pm |

    There’s an article in the Times that Jack Kerouac used to play a fantasy baseball game of his own design and that he created his own teams named after makes of cars.

    See if this link works

    http://www.nytimes.c...

    There’s a slideshow with his team cards and other paraphernalia.

  • Bernard | May 15, 2009 at 7:03 pm |

    [quote comment="329501"]There’s an article in the Times that Jack Kerouac used to play a fantasy baseball game of his own design and that he created his own teams named after makes of cars.

    See if this link works

    http://www.nytimes.c...

    There’s a slideshow with his team cards and other paraphernalia.[/quote]

    Holy shit… Ry Co, I think I may insist that you design a logo for the Pittsburgh Plymouths. I have about a million ideas…

  • Nick | May 15, 2009 at 7:11 pm |

    [quote comment="329385"][quote comment="329382"][quote comment="329378"][quote comment="329366"]In today’s lead photo, the inside edge of the helmet’s right earhole appears to be silver. If it is, that might indicate that the helmet was, in fact, painted gold. I mean, that if the gold is from the helmet discoloring with age, wouldn’t the inside edge of earhole discolor at the same rate? (that’s a science question, not a rhetorical question)

    –Ricko[/quote]

    Ricko –

    I can’t see the picture you are referring to, however i suppose it would depend on where exactly the paint is located. From what I have read today, the contention is that the gold is caused by the discoloration of the plastic shell, more so than the discoloration of the paint. If this is the case then your theory may not hold true if the silver is at a point on the helmet where it can be viewed directly with no distortion from the plastic.

    If not, then disregard my post.[/quote]

    Yeah, forgot about the plastic coating stuff. Would they have coated the inside, too? Anybody? Cuz it’s turned gold, too.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Personally the Bobby Layne helmet looks like a gold helmet to me. But I do not even begin to claim to be an equipment and/or uni historian.[/quote]

    FOR WHAT IT’S WORTH …

    The Detroit Lions’ logo from the 1940s-1950s has a large portion of the logo in GOLD. This includes the logo worn on the jackets, coaching shirts, stationary, etc. I recently saw that logo on an authentic 1950s coaches’ (letterman style) jacket sold on Grey Flanmnel auctions.

    I own a reproduction of that jacket – identical – sold by Ebbets Field Flannels 6-8 years ago.

    The Gold portion of the logo is as prominent as the blue or silver, which are both present.

    So maybe a Gold helmet is not too much of a stretch for that Lions’ era.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 7:13 pm |

    [quote comment="329501"]There’s an article in the Times that Jack Kerouac used to play a fantasy baseball game of his own design and that he created his own teams named after makes of cars.

    See if this link works

    http://www.nytimes.c...

    There’s a slideshow with his team cards and other paraphernalia.[/quote]

    im lame and not a member of the NYT…any chance those can be flickr’ed and uploaded here :D…

    or are there too many of them

    (and yes, this problem on my end could be solved by my joining the gray lady, but for argument’s sake, humor my lamosity)

    if it’s too intensive to upload stuff… i spose i could “join”

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 7:19 pm |

    nevermind … i just googled “kerouac & times” and got the story

  • Jon | May 15, 2009 at 8:39 pm |

    Chuck Connors, questioning on What’s My Line and the original Rifleman, PLAYED for Branch Rickey’s Dodgers. Coincidence?

  • Carl | May 15, 2009 at 8:41 pm |

    Strange…I was at the grocery story and saw this ad for Big League Chew. The players helmet has a 25 but his jersey most definately is a number in the teens…

  • Hibbs | May 15, 2009 at 9:04 pm |

    R.I.P. Wayman :(

  • Podunk Texas | May 15, 2009 at 9:18 pm |

    Shouldn’t somebody tell Chad Johnson that “85” in Spanish is “Ochenta y cinco?”

    *sigh*

  • Chris A | May 15, 2009 at 9:42 pm |

    [quote comment="329509"]Shouldn’t somebody tell Chad Johnson that “85” in Spanish is “Ochenta y cinco?”

    *sigh*[/quote]

    Dugout speaks generally will say a double digit number as 2 single digits. Sometimes it could be code for the pitch believed to be coming. A team I was on once had runners on base looking in to get the pitch sequence — if we knew it and had an idea that a fastball was coming, one designated person in the dugout would the hitter’s first name; off-spead pitch, hitter’s last name.

    As far as calling out the number, you’d be more like to hear “two seven” then “twenty seven”.

  • Brandon | May 15, 2009 at 9:46 pm |

    MLB is changing things up in the name of money… Err I mean patriotism.

    http://www.lids.com/...

  • Green Dot? | May 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm |

    [quote comment="329509"]Shouldn’t somebody tell Chad Johnson that “85” in Spanish is “Ochenta y cinco?”

    *sigh*[/quote]

    Boy… You just bought a whole can of whoop ass! But not from me. Keep smiling.

  • =bg= | May 15, 2009 at 10:31 pm |

    [quote comment="329488"]are the mets thinking about ditching the black??

    http://www.metsblog....

    Not tonite they’re not. Black jerseys, black caps, and gray pants. Ewww. Meanwhile, Giants look classy traditional in their light creme look.

    http://img.photobuck...

  • The Fonz | May 15, 2009 at 10:38 pm |

    [quote comment="329513"][quote comment="329488"]are the mets thinking about ditching the black??

    http://www.metsblog....

    Not tonite they’re not. Black jerseys, black caps, and gray pants. Ewww. Meanwhile, Giants look classy traditional in their light creme look.

    http://img.photobuck...

    Livan is wearing a blue undershirt yet again.

  • Podunk Texas | May 15, 2009 at 10:47 pm |

    [quote comment="329512"][quote comment="329509"]Shouldn’t somebody tell Chad Johnson that “85” in Spanish is “Ochenta y cinco?”

    *sigh*[/quote]

    Boy… You just bought a whole can of whoop ass! But not from me. Keep smiling.[/quote]

    If Señor Ochocinco comes over, I’ll just confuse him with my Spanglish self. ¡Orale! ¿Por que no puede hablar español the right way? Oye, esa numero es wrong, güey… I guess having a roommate from Mexico paid off! ¡Jajaja!

  • anotherguy | May 15, 2009 at 10:47 pm |

    [quote comment="329497"]But that’s the problem. They didn’t vote that way. The leaders of the two tribes who want the name changed are the people spearheading this movement in forcing the NCAA to force UND to change the name.

    The communities themselves actually endorse the name.[/quote]

    Teebz, one of the two tribes has had a referendum: their popular vote supported the nickname. There’s a drive to get a referendum scheduled by the other tribe, but so far that hasn’t happened.

    Basically at least one “executive council” (that might not be the exact title, but you know what I mean) has said “we don’t like the nickname”. The other executive council may or may not have said “we don’t like it” or they may have simply not taken a stance either way.

    The NCAA ruling requires that both tribes affirmatively approve the nickname (can’t just “say nothing either way”) and the approval must be given by a party authorized to speak for the tribes “according to the tribal constitution”.

    Many people in North Dakota are dismayed because the NCAA is forcing the tribes to act: and there are much bigger problems facing the tribes than a nickname.

    And many outsiders also believe that the common feeling among the average tribal member is that they don’t mind the nickname. If a vote were to be scheduled, they think the nickname would be supported just as it was in the first tribe that voted.

    There’s a lot of complexities. Why the two tribes that were given authority over the nickname by the NCAA are the ONLY two tribes that have this authority has been discussed, among other things.

  • Scott Davis | May 15, 2009 at 11:01 pm |

    The Red Sox have once again been forced to wear their road grays because the Mariners are wearing their blue alternate jerseys tonight.

  • LI Phil | May 15, 2009 at 11:30 pm |

    [quote]The Red Sox have once again been forced to wear their road grays[/quote]

    you say that like it’s a bad thing

  • Scott Davis | May 15, 2009 at 11:40 pm |

    [quote comment=\"329518\"][quote]The Red Sox have once again been forced to wear their road grays[/quote]

    you say that like it\’s a bad thing[/quote]

    I\’m just not a huge fan on the new road unis. I would like a turn back the clock night featuring the 1989-2008 beauties.

  • Allan | May 15, 2009 at 11:50 pm |

    According to Tim Brulia’s Pro Football Uniform History Project, the Lions wore silver, blue, and red helmets at various points over the years (yes, red), but there’s no mention of gold.

    ——————

    Allan

  • James Craven | May 16, 2009 at 12:10 am |

    [quote comment="329471"]“What about the ‘Fighting Surrendering Cheese-Eating Monkey French’?”[/quote]
    Much better. Also, fresh from the Cramer boards this item:
    Mets uniform changes?

  • aeneas01 | May 16, 2009 at 12:17 am |

    for those interested in doing some digging, vintage photos and vintage film footage is available that confirms the lions wore gold helmets at one time. i pulled a few frames from an nfl films dvd that shows layne wearing a gold helmet while with the lions – these captures can be seen at the game used forum. and if some are still not convinced by the frame captures, i recommend watching the dvd (inside the vault) as the motion footage leaves little doubt.

    http://www.gameusedu...

  • LI Phil | May 16, 2009 at 12:31 am |

    [quote comment="329521"] fresh from the Cramer boards this item:
    Mets uniform changes?[/quote]

    yet, shockingly old news on the UW boards

    isn’t it “creamer” anyway, or are you trying to be funny?

    /still banned there?

  • Casey (Davis, CA) | May 16, 2009 at 4:05 am |

    [quote comment="329492"][quote comment="329414"]For all you hockey fans, please read this article and vote in favor of Time Magazine continuing to cover hockey:

    http://www.time.com/...

    F*&$ing Montana. Bunch of hosers.[/quote]

    2 voters from Montana. 1 hoser, and 1 normal person.

  • jclou | May 16, 2009 at 9:57 am |

    [quote comment="329367"]Then again, the entire inside of the helmet appears to be gold.
    Why spray the inside?

    I’m thinking they might have been gold. Why not, it’s closer to the color of an actual lion than silver, that’s for sure.

    —Ricko[/quote]

    Riddell RT helmets were made of tenite plastic – which was painted on the inside like the later Macgregor/Kelley and Marietta/Maxpro helmets. The plastic yellowed very quickly; hell it might have been slightly yellow to begin with. Also, Riddell RT and RK helmets were made of 3 plastic parts, not a one-piece shell. There were two sides plus the center ridge. On the RTs, the center ridge was made of a different type of plastic and were painted on the outside (while the sides were tenite painted on the inside.

    Even the 1960s-1980s clear shells had a slight tint to them – remember the Patriots white Macgregors from the early 70s had a slight blue tint to them. An even easier comparison would be the Cowboys Maxpros compared to their Riddells in the 70s – the Maxpros always looked more “silver” due to the shell and the finish on the inside

  • Carl | May 16, 2009 at 10:04 am |

    [quote comment="329524"][quote comment="329492"][quote comment="329414"]For all you hockey fans, please read this article and vote in favor of Time Magazine continuing to cover hockey:

    http://www.time.com/...

    Thanks. I should have looked closer. My comment should have been singular in form. I guess I assumed that there were more than two people in Montana that read about hockey.
    F*&$ing Montana. Bunch of hosers.[/quote]

    2 voters from Montana. 1 hoser, and 1 normal person.[/quote]

  • Bill | May 16, 2009 at 11:21 am |

    [quote comment="329415"][quote comment="329400"][quote comment="329363"][quote comment="329357"]btw,

    wtf is UTZ?

    I see it advertised in lots of stadiums, but, umm, WTF is it?[/quote]

     

    edit: dammit stu!

    chips[/quote]

    Mmm… Carolina Bar-B-Q is the TRUTH!!
    http://www.advantage...
    WHY can’t I get a full-size bag in Pittsburgh?![/quote]
    Not sure…Synders must have monopoly of anything larger than a snack pack!

    if you’re ever an hour and a half east, stop in Johnstown. Their Giant Eagle stores have the full size bags.

    Crab chip baby! (not knocking carolina BBQ because that’s good too!)[/quote]
    It also helps when our neighbor’s uncle works for Utz and can get the crab chips at the Giant Eagle near us.

  • aeneas01 | May 17, 2009 at 3:14 am |

    [quote comment="329367"]Then again, the entire inside of the helmet appears to be gold.
    Why spray the inside?

    —Ricko[/quote]

    a closer look would show that the interior of the appears gray in color, not gold. this is because once the helmet color was sprayed on the inside of the rt shell, a gray coat (sealer) followed.