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If I Take Out A4, I’ll Sink Your Submarine

A1-6

[Editor’s Note: I’ll be off the grid for most of today. Fortunately, intern Vince Grzegorek has cooked up a doozy of an entry. It’s lengthy, but stick with it — you won’t be sorry. — PL]

What stands out in the photo shown at right?

Its age? Sure. The socks? If you’re named Paul. Wonder if Bill Veeck once ran a basketball team and hired the little guy in front? Maybe.

But what really sticks out are the uniform numbers — A1, A2, A3, etc. We’re not playing Battleship here, so what gives?

In terms of a definitive answer, not much. But there’s plenty to be learned along the way. For starters, we know that this is a photo of a YMCA basketball team from Independence, Missouri, taken sometime around or before 1900.

The letter/number system used on the jerseys seems like an anomaly when compared to other early-1900s YMCA basketball squads (as seen here, here, here, here, here, and here). But that’s not so strange when you consider there was no real template or guide to go by when creating these uniforms. Remember, the game was still in its nascent stages, and coherent style and fashion were still a long way down the road. Still, for all the variations exhibited by other YMCA teams of the era, none of them used the number/letter format seen in the Independence photo (or any numbering system at all, for that matter).

Of course, we’re simply talking about YMCA teams here. There were plenty of colleges, schools, and private clubs that fielded squads during this time, some of which probably put together better uniforms, but the point is that the letter/numbering format shown in the Independence photo appears to have been a pretty rare phenomenon.

Rare, but not unprecedented. Uni Watch design director Scott M.X. Turner points out that there’s at least one other instance of alphanumeric uniform designations: the 1952 LSU football Tigers, who used a combination of the letters E (End), G (Guard), T (Tackle), Q (Quarterback), L and R and F (Left and Right Fullbacks), and the digits 0-9 (even and odd depending on your side) for each player during that season. But the Independence YMCA photo appears to be the only other example.

So, end of story, right? Well, yes and no.

In researching the history behind the photo and the uniform numbers, I ran across an excellent video series produced for the Sunflower Cable series, called As Time Goes By, on kusports.com (the full series of short videos can be found here). Thanks to the first video, a key element in the picture is explained: Player A4 is none other than Forrest “Phog” Allen.

Some quick background: Phog Allen is considered one of the founding fathers of college basketball. Before that, though, he played for the Independence athletic club team in the early 1900s, and it was during this time he met James Naismith (here’s a photo of them together in 1932), who brought Allen to the University of Kansas to play for the Jayhawks starting in 1905, and to coach in 1908. Allen had a huge impact off the court as well (there’s plenty of biographical info available here), which helps explain why the University of Kansas now plays at the Allen Fieldhouse, in front of which stands a statue of the man himself (check out the old Jayhawk logo on his jacket).

As you might expect, a man of this stature had a few ideas about how a basketball team should be dressed.

According to Tim Carpenter of kusports.com, “For a game in 1923, Coach Allen demonstrated his reverence for George Washington’s birthday by dressing five players in blue uniforms, five players in red uniforms and five players in white uniforms. He substituted in units of five.” (The full text of the article can be found here.) Phog was also one of the first to recognize the immense market for basketball athletic equipment, even marketing his own brand of shoes, the Phog Allen Basketball Shoe. (Mick Allen, Phog’s grandson, commented, “You should have seen the thing. Each shoe weighed about 40 pounds. They’re laughable!”)

And that, my friends, is just the tip of the sartorial iceberg.

The goldmine is found in Dr. Forrest C. “Phog” Allen’s 1924 book, My Basket-ball Bible, which includes 10 solid pages on equipment and uniforms. After digging up a copy of the book at the library (it’s out of print), I transcribed the most interesting and relevant parts below. It’s evident that some of his suggestions and beliefs have taken hold and can still be seen in uniform design to this day, and then there are the ideas (most notably, one involving gasoline) that have fallen by the fashion wayside.

What is clear is that Phog would have been an enthusiastic Uni Watch reader. He wanted his players to look good on the court, in style and color, and believed the athletic aesthetic had a proportionate effect on their play. He also had a particular interest in stockings.

Here are some choice excerpts:

From the Introduction to the section on Equipment:

The best in a player’s equipment is none too good. Neat, well-fitting and durable basket-ball outfits enhance the players’ chances of winning. They look the part of champions. It is then up to them to acquit themselves as such. Legitimate competition in appearance is a natural and desirable thing. Clean competition in athletics is another.

We must not lose sight of the fact that the patrons of the game are pleased at the spectacle of two well-groomed, high-powered aggregations struggling for supremacy. The players are the picture; the spectators, the background.”

Two Sets of Uniforms Desirable: A team should have two sets of uniforms- one for use in practice, the other for use in games. This separate outfit for practice helps to keep the one used in the games new and clean, and the men get the psychic effect of feeling well dressed for the game. When soiled, these out-fits used in the games should be dry-cleaned, as tubbing will cause the vivid colors used in the suits to run.

Cotton Gymnasium Shirts: For practice, I have found it expedient to use a cotton gymnasium shirt under a white regulation wool jersey. The wool used day after day chafes and irritates the players. During games, the regulation wool jersey is all right, as the player in his excitement will forget small irritations.

Shoes: Efforts are being made now with several shoe concerns for the manufacture of a specially designed practice shoe, with a thin lead plate in sections vulcanized into a heavy rubber sole. The difference in the weight of such a practice shoe and the light shoe used in the game would make the player when in the game feel as if he had wings.

Sulphur is used in the manufacture of all rubber goods. For this reason, the soles of the shoes should be washed with benzene or gasoline just before the game starts.

Stockings: Wool socks give life to tired feet. See that the athlete has them. Use a cheap white cotton sanitary stocking next to the skin, with the footless stocking over it, and a short soft wool sock over these. These two pairs of socks will allow the friction to come between the socks; whereas, if only one pair of socks is used with the footless stocking, the friction will come between the skin and the sock, and will cause a blister.

It is not necessary to have a basket-ball stocking as long as a football or baseball stocking. The better plan is to have them made six inches shorter than they are ordinarily, so that the unnecessary bulk around the knee guard will be done away with. Emphasize the use of knee guards and stocking. Men wearing stockings have two chances to find their team mates; while men without have but one. In close scrimmage, the color in the stockings often shows more readily than does the color in the jerseys. Men learn to play to the color in the jerseys and in the stockings. Take away the stockings, and you lessen the power of your offense.

Jerseys: Teams that can afford them should have two sets of woolen jerseys- one set white, and the other some brilliant hue, signifying the colors of the school. Exercise care in selecting your colored jerseys. White or some bright color will show better under artificial light than will the more somber hues.

Often, in practice, I use uniforms at variance with the team’s regular colors, in order to make it difficult for the men to find their team mates. Sometimes we use misfits in any color, so that the men will be forced in passing to look for something other than color. This improves their passing vision for close competition in games. Freshmen often wear their traditional opponents’ Varsity colors. This gives atmosphere to the scrimmage and encourages traditional rivalry between your school and your friend, the enemy.

Pants: Flannel basket-ball pants are better than the regulation cotton pants, because they retain heat around the hips and back, and display more class on the court.

However, regardless of the material used, the pants should be white in color. When the colored shirt is used, the white pants break the monotony and will often relieve a color that does not have all the advantages of optic attraction. If color is used on the pants, it should be only a thin silk ribbon trim around the leg and down the side seams, the same shade as the jersey.

Property Man: In connection with the player’s equipment, I am mentioning the property man. So essential is he in caring for the players’ outfits and for athletic supplies in general that in a short time he will save the price of his salary.

After practice hours, the equipment should be checked in to this property man, who should hang each outfit on an individual coat hangar. At the next practice the property man should check the outfits and exchange clean equipment for soiled. These clean outfits keep the men in fine spirits and help to ward off what coaches may mistake for staleness.

When possible, combine the duties of your property man and your team trainer into one. One man handling the combined jobs will justify the expenses of his trips. He will know the various peculiarities of the men- their idiosynchrasies- and will be well fitted to design their protective equipment, when necessary. He is a good moralizer, and, when situations arise that cause incompatibility, he is often a handy intermediary between the coach and the players.

Think such a treatise could come from the collegiate coaching ranks of today? Think Bob Knight has some opinions on whether a particular jersey is going to chafe his player? Or cares in the least about how a sock could possibly bunch up around the knee, making the player appear disheveled and the stocking too large? Probably not.

Alright, so a little of the language is a little bit laughable, but remember, this was first published 83 years ago. We can look past those moments (after an acceptable chuckle, or five) and concentrate on the fact that Phog took the lead in the early days to try and eradicate some of the uniform variations that we saw earlier. With the help of some gasoline, some hemming along the knee area of the stockings, and a good property man, he tried to lead basketball into a more stylish and better dressed era.

Unfortunately, Phog and his book remain silent on the issue of uniforms numbers. So the Battleship-style designations remain a mystery, for now.

Tangential Bonus Material: Additional visual examples of YMCA teams from the aforementioned era can be seen here (Naismith with his first team), here, here, here, here, here, and here.

You can see some of Phog’s uniform philosophies in application in the University of Kansas team photos from 1923 and 1924 (about the time he would have been putting the final touches on his book).

Even though Phog had to retire from coaching (age limits) before Wilt Chamberlain joined the Kansas team in 1955, we do have this photo of the two together. Here is a photo of Wilt with his 1952 YMCA championship team from Philadelphia.

The history of the adoption of the Jayhawk as the University of Kansas logo and its evolution in design can be found here. If you scroll down to the last link on this page you can find the history of the uniforms for the Kansas football team, where you can enjoy plenty of striped-sock goodness with matching striped hats here, and this photo of some bizarre sweaters the team wore in 1926. Finally, in more archive news, there is a great site devoted to the centennial of Georgetown basketball, entitled, “100 Years of Blue and Gray.” While normally I would take the time to sort through the great team photos and media guides in the gallery section, quite enough has been written today, so feel free to poke around on your own.

 

161 comments to If I Take Out A4, I’ll Sink Your Submarine

  • baude | January 10, 2007 at 8:05 am |

    anyone having the links in the main page open in new windows rather than in the same window everytime as per usual?

  • Natron | January 10, 2007 at 8:14 am |

    Links are working fine for me.

  • Andy from KC | January 10, 2007 at 8:26 am |

    The links have always opened in new windows for me. Personally, I prefer it that way.

  • WVU Tom | January 10, 2007 at 8:32 am |

    [quote comment=”39868″]The links have always opened in new windows for me. Personally, I prefer it that way.[/quote]

    Same here–don’t change a thing.

  • Jonathan J. | January 10, 2007 at 8:43 am |

    The links in the paragraph below are going to the same picture:

    Even though Phog had to retire from coaching (age limits) before Wilt Chamberlain joined the Kansas team in 1955, we do have this photo of the two together. Here is a photo of Wilt with his 1952 YMCA championship team from Philadelphia.

  • TX Ken | January 10, 2007 at 9:10 am |

    So was this a good article? Did anyone read the whole thing? The first couple paragraphs were interesting, so what did I miss?

  • Pat | January 10, 2007 at 9:17 am |

    Honestly, best Uni-Watch blog post ever, I think. Not enough talk is ever had of basketball uniforms. If Paul is writing it usually comes back to baseball or football, which is rightfully so since he has made it know that that is his forte. In the comments section it always seems to head off into the hockey world, which is also fine seeing as how it’s up to the user’s to decide what the comments are and said user’s seem to prefer hockey.

    However, I am a basketball man, through and through. I appreciated every single miniscule detail in this article, especially the part about the socks because I also wear two pairs of socks, a long one and a short one on top, to cut down on blisters. I do think, though, that playing basketball in the days of Phog Allen would have been extremely uncomfortable and unneccesarily warm. He seems to stay away from the use of cotton and it’s breathability in athletic clothing and use wool as much as possible and sometimes flannel, both of which seem to be cold weather fabrics. However, despite the season it’s played in, basketball is not a cold weather sport and I can’t fathom putting on a pair of wool socks to play basketball in, or an itchy, sweaty, wool jersey to run around in. I can’t imagine how soaked in sweat the jerseys must be for the property man.

    Anyway, enough recapping for me, just wanted to air my thanks on the article.

  • Jill | January 10, 2007 at 9:25 am |

    The best part is when Phog writes to wash the soles of your shoes in benzene before the game. I guess I might be the only one who finds that comment so amusing. In the chemical industry now they treat benzene like it is the most dangerous thing around. They pound it in your head…if you spill a drop on yourself you will get cancer and die a horrible death in the very near future.

  • Joe Hilseberg | January 10, 2007 at 9:33 am |

    [quote comment=”39868″]The links have always opened in new windows for me. Personally, I prefer it that way.[/quote]

    Please don’t take away my new window links!!!!

  • jeff | January 10, 2007 at 9:36 am |

    Loved it. But then again that’s from my completely biased opinion as a KU alum. The statue is new within the last 5 years or so. There’s also a banner inside the fieldhouse which reads (if I remember correctly)

    “Pay heed all who enter, beware of the PHOG”

  • Ian K | January 10, 2007 at 9:38 am |

    [quote comment=”39862″]anyone having the links in the main page open in new windows rather than in the same window everytime as per usual?[/quote]

    I’m having that problem too. Normally every photo link opens in the same separate window, rather than, say, 10 windows for 10 images. Not that big of a deal, still better than having to hit BACK every time.

    Good job on the article, Vince. I like Phog’s writing style with the hyphens. My Jayhawk room-mate will love reading this.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 9:40 am |

    Nice article, Vince. I’m not a basketball guy by any means, but this article was very interesting.

  • Jeremy | January 10, 2007 at 9:41 am |

    It seems as if LSU may have gotten the idea for their alpha nemeric numbering system from Kentucky. This blub is from the UK athletics website…

    “1A And 1B —
    During the course of his legendary career, Coach Paul “Bear” Bryant was known as an innovator of introducing changes in the game of football. One change Bryant introduced during his tenure at Kentucky was the use of a unique number system to identify twins Harry and Larry Jones, who both lettered three years (1950-52) with the Wildcats. Harry wore 1A and Larry wore 1B. Harry led the Wildcats in all-purpose yardage in 1951 with 964 while Larry led UK in kickoff returns (21.1 avg) in 952.”

    So far, i have been unable to find a pic.

  • WVU Tom | January 10, 2007 at 9:44 am |

    [quote comment=”39881″][quote comment=”39862″]anyone having the links in the main page open in new windows rather than in the same window everytime as per usual?[/quote]

    I’m having that problem too. Normally every photo link opens in the same separate window, rather than, say, 10 windows for 10 images. Not that big of a deal, still better than having to hit BACK every time.

    Good job on the article, Vince. I like Phog’s writing style with the hyphens. My Jayhawk room-mate will love reading this.[/quote]

    Oh, well that behavior is slightly different then I originally thought. I never noticed because I will usually open a link, check out the photo and close the window before returning to uni-watch and moving on to the next.

  • Joe Hilseberg | January 10, 2007 at 9:44 am |

    Hey Teebz – Can you post the link to the American Needle hat deal again? Or did you even post it yesterday?? I just saw the links to the sweet hats you were thinking about getting and wanted to grab some too!

    I personally LOVE American Needle hats. I will not buy a New Era hat until they make some serious changes to them. (Which may be addressed in the new release) A.N. hats just seem to work for me and the shape of my dome.

    Plus I don’t know if anyone has actually compared the shape of the bill when flat between the two, but I find the shape of the A.N. bill to look better when bent properly. The New Era (5950) bill is pretty much just a big half circle made of a material that doesn’t hold it’s shape firmly.

    Plus is non-uni, but damn cool, news….Apple does it again!

  • Jeremy | January 10, 2007 at 9:46 am |

    It seems as if the 1952 LSU team may have gotten the inspiration for their alpha numeric numbering system from Kentucky. This is a blurb from ukathletics.com:

    1A And 1B
    During the course of his legendary career, Coach Paul “Bear” Bryant was known as an innovator of introducing changes in the game of football. One change Bryant introduced during his tenure at Kentucky was the use of a unique number system to identify twins Harry and Larry Jones, who both lettered three years (1950-52) with the Wildcats. Harry wore 1A and Larry wore 1B. Harry led the Wildcats in all-purpose yardage in 1951 with 964 while Larry led UK in kickoff returns (21.1 avg) in 952.

    So far, I have been unable to find a pic.

  • Bob A | January 10, 2007 at 9:47 am |

    Good stuff, Vince. KU has a great basketball history and they do a good job of showing it on their website.

    The YMCA reference reminded me of when I coached my boys Y teams and we used different colored wristbands to establish matchups. The ‘visiting’ teams coach would put the bands on his five starters and the ‘home’ coach would get to do the same. There actually was some strategy involved. It was easier then telling 10 year olds ‘You got #12″.

  • todd krevanchi | January 10, 2007 at 10:19 am |

    what a timeline.
    naismith (the inventor of the sport) coached phog allen who coached dean smith who is responsible for much of the coaching and playing landscape over the last 30 years…

    i cant believe that you would tarnish an otherwise fine article with the words “bobby knight”.
    he might have a greater number of total wins than smith, but that is the one and ONLY statistic in which knight is greater than smith at.

  • Shane | January 10, 2007 at 10:28 am |

    I saw this on Wikipedia..some rugby teams (Leicester Tigers and Bristol) used to use letters instead of numbers.

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 10:29 am |

    [quote comment=”39885″]Hey Teebz – Can you post the link to the American Needle hat deal again? Or did you even post it yesterday?? I just saw the links to the sweet hats you were thinking about getting and wanted to grab some too!

    I personally LOVE American Needle hats. I will not buy a New Era hat until they make some serious changes to them. (Which may be addressed in the new release) A.N. hats just seem to work for me and the shape of my dome.

    Plus I don’t know if anyone has actually compared the shape of the bill when flat between the two, but I find the shape of the A.N. bill to look better when bent properly. The New Era (5950) bill is pretty much just a big half circle made of a material that doesn’t hold it’s shape firmly.

    Plus is non-uni, but damn cool, news….Apple does it again![/quote]

    The sale on the hats was from mlb.com. just go to the store section of the website, then pick your team and go to the caps sections. in the caps section look for “mens cooperstown” link on the left. im using the oppurtunity to get a new red sox hat since mine is beat up (WS 04 5950) and I’ll also pick up the new D-Backs Red and maybe Blue Jays gray or Dodgers traditonal blue.

    Also, as a Mac Head, the new iPhone is mindblowing. It puts my recently purchased Sidekick3 to shame.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 10:34 am |

    [quote comment=”39885″]Hey Teebz – Can you post the link to the American Needle hat deal again? Or did you even post it yesterday?? I just saw the links to the sweet hats you were thinking about getting and wanted to grab some too!
    [/quote]

    If you go to MLB.com, the sale is on until January 15th. It is automatically added to your online cart when you make three cap purchases. :o)

    Ed, you’ll have to let me know about the new D-Backs hat. I was leary about the colour.

  • dgc | January 10, 2007 at 10:36 am |

    So, will Cal Ripken’s plaque have the cartoony Oriole face or the realistic bird on his hat? Do we have to wait until the ceremony to find out? Lucky for Gwynn, San Diego’s hat logo has remained constant in design, if not in color.

  • Shane | January 10, 2007 at 10:38 am |

    [quote comment=”39895″]Also, as a Mac Head, the new iPhone is mindblowing. It puts my recently purchased Sidekick3 to shame.[/quote]

    The one beef I have it that it’s a Cingular exclusive, as I’m on Verizon, and don’t really want to switch over just for a phone.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 10:38 am |

    Oh, and the reason I went with throwbacks in my cap selection is because I already own a Brooklyn Dodgers cap. I agree that New Era hats are a little higher quality, but I like the throwback logos and simplicity.

    What can I say? I’m a traditionalist. :o)

  • Anthony Verna | January 10, 2007 at 10:40 am |

    Way to go, fellow Case Western alumnus! Good post today.

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 10:44 am |

    [quote comment=”39900″][quote comment=”39895″]Also, as a Mac Head, the new iPhone is mindblowing. It puts my recently purchased Sidekick3 to shame.[/quote]

    The one beef I have it that it’s a Cingular exclusive, as I’m on Verizon, and don’t really want to switch over just for a phone.[/quote]

    I knew that was going to happen since Apple has been Cingular exclusive with their iTunes phones over the past 2 years. I had Verizon and changed over to T-Mobile to get the Sidekick this summer. In Connecticut, Cingulars service is pretty good, better than T-Mobile’s and way worse than Verizon’s. Verizon’s downfall is their lack of interesting phones.

    [quote comment=”39897″][quote comment=”39885″]Hey Teebz – Can you post the link to the American Needle hat deal again? Or did you even post it yesterday?? I just saw the links to the sweet hats you were thinking about getting and wanted to grab some too!
    [/quote]

    If you go to MLB.com, the sale is on until January 15th. It is automatically added to your online cart when you make three cap purchases. :o)

    Ed, you’ll have to let me know about the new D-Backs hat. I was leary about the colour.[/quote]

    From what it looks like, its going to be a shade darker than my Astros red hat, which is good cause considering that hat faded real quick on me this summer. What is amazing to me, is that no current team has a dark maroon hat.

  • Pat | January 10, 2007 at 10:44 am |

    [quote comment=”39891″]i cant believe that you would tarnish an otherwise fine article with the words “bobby knight”.
    he might have a greater number of total wins than smith, but that is the one and ONLY statistic in which knight is greater than smith at.[/quote]

    I would have to argue that point. I think Bob Knight has done more with less than Dean Smith ever did. Sure he had players. He had Scott May, Alan Henderson, Isiah Thomas, and Keith Smart but he was never able to get big time guys like Smith was. Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Jerry Stackhouse, Billy Cunningham, Sam Perkins, those were star players. With the exception of Thomas Knight never had a top recruit star player. That’s either a knock on Knights recruiting, or a credit to his feelings that you should get good people before good players. He has always graduated his players, something Dean Smith has a hard time saying toward the end of his tenure when leaving school early was becoming popular.

    If you ask me, Bob Knight is very close to the coach that Dean Smith was, if not equal or better. Dean Smith, maybe, was a better recruiter, but even that I find debatable.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 10:46 am |

    [quote comment=”39903″]
    From what it looks like, its going to be a shade darker than my Astros red hat, which is good cause considering that hat faded real quick on me this summer. What is amazing to me, is that no current team has a dark maroon hat.[/quote]

    The Phillies have their maroon throwback in their Cooperstown Collection. Is that what you’re looking for?

  • Anthony Verna | January 10, 2007 at 10:49 am |

    [quote comment=”39905″][quote comment=”39903″]
    From what it looks like, its going to be a shade darker than my Astros red hat, which is good cause considering that hat faded real quick on me this summer. What is amazing to me, is that no current team has a dark maroon hat.[/quote]

    The Phillies have their maroon throwback in their Cooperstown Collection. Is that what you’re looking for?[/quote]

    I think he’s wondering why another team doesn’t use that color. I’m still wondering why the Phils went to the 50s-like style jerseys they have now. The maroons were a very nice style.

  • David | January 10, 2007 at 10:52 am |

    Off topic:

    Anyone have any idea where I can get a cap with the old-old (1960’s) Denver Broncos logo? I can find a bunch with the current logo and that from the pre-1997 days (the “D” logo) but nothing with the “crazy horse” logo.

    Thanks

  • WVU Tom | January 10, 2007 at 10:59 am |

    [quote comment=”39899″]So, will Cal Ripken’s plaque have the cartoony Oriole face or the realistic bird on his hat? Do we have to wait until the ceremony to find out? Lucky for Gwynn, San Diego’s hat logo has remained constant in design, if not in color.[/quote]

    Cal did spend a few more years wearing the current edition of the Orioles cap. I was never a fan of the tri-colored hats which the Orioles (and serveral other teams) wore in the 70’s/80’s, but I do miss the old cartoon bird! I wish they could bring him back, even as an alternate that would be much better than thier friday night “O’s” hat, which really doesn’t impress me.

    (Of course, me biggest complaint about the O’s lately would be the quality of the product they’ve been trying to sell to their fans lately regarding the talent on the field).

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 11:00 am |

    [quote comment=”39905″][quote comment=”39903″]
    From what it looks like, its going to be a shade darker than my Astros red hat, which is good cause considering that hat faded real quick on me this summer. What is amazing to me, is that no current team has a dark maroon hat.[/quote]

    The Phillies have their maroon throwback in their Cooperstown Collection. Is that what you’re looking for?[/quote]

    I was looking at that this morning, but I’m so used to my 5950s. I’ll admit, I wear my brim pretty flat so I like that fact that the hats come without a bend. It’s the exact opposite for when I’m playing though, I always have a bend in my game hats.

    [quote comment=”39908″][quote comment=”39905″][quote comment=”39903″]
    From what it looks like, its going to be a shade darker than my Astros red hat, which is good cause considering that hat faded real quick on me this summer. What is amazing to me, is that no current team has a dark maroon hat.[/quote]

    The Phillies have their maroon throwback in their Cooperstown Collection. Is that what you’re looking for?[/quote]

    I think he’s wondering why another team doesn’t use that color. I’m still wondering why the Phils went to the 50s-like style jerseys they have now. The maroons were a very nice style.[/quote]

    I was wondering this too. The MLB has two teams wearing the same exact colors (see Astros and D-Backs), but there are some colors that are being left out like Maroon and Kelly “Celtic” Green. I guess you can say the A’s wear it, but I find their shade a bit darker. Sorry the Art major is coming out now when I talk about color definition.

  • Kenny | January 10, 2007 at 11:01 am |

    Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?

  • Jay Palmer | January 10, 2007 at 11:11 am |

    [quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    Door number 2

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 11:12 am |

    [quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    I think MLB should re-issue the early 1990s California Angels cap. It was all navy with the C and A interlocked, and a small halo over the A. I had one as a kid, and I’ve never been able to find one since.

    Oh, and MLB’s choice of hats for the Padres’ Swinging Padre left me disappointed.

  • Kerry | January 10, 2007 at 11:13 am |

    [quote comment=”39916″][quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    Door number 2[/quote]
    I have to agree on that one!

  • Kenny | January 10, 2007 at 11:15 am |

    [quote comment=”39918″][quote comment=”39916″][quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    Door number 2[/quote]
    I have to agree on that one![/quote]

    I figured…thanks

  • ToasterPoodle | January 10, 2007 at 11:15 am |

    [quote comment=”39891″]what a timeline.
    naismith (the inventor of the sport) coached phog allen who coached dean smith who is responsible for much of the coaching and playing landscape over the last 30 years…

    i cant believe that you would tarnish an otherwise fine article with the words “bobby knight”.
    he might have a greater number of total wins than smith, but that is the one and ONLY statistic in which knight is greater than smith at.[/quote]

    Don’t get your panties in a wad, no one dissed Dean Smith.

  • ToasterPoodle | January 10, 2007 at 11:20 am |

    [quote comment=”39920″][quote comment=”39891″]what a timeline.
    naismith (the inventor of the sport) coached phog allen who coached dean smith who is responsible for much of the coaching and playing landscape over the last 30 years…

    i cant believe that you would tarnish an otherwise fine article with the words “bobby knight”.
    he might have a greater number of total wins than smith, but that is the one and ONLY statistic in which knight is greater than smith at.[/quote]
    Well, wins and National Championships.

  • Pat | January 10, 2007 at 11:22 am |

    [quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    Forget those two, try to find the one with the halo around the button.

  • Jay Palmer | January 10, 2007 at 11:24 am |

    [quote comment=”39917″][quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    I think MLB should re-issue the early 1990s California Angels cap. It was all navy with the C and A interlocked, and a small halo over the A. I had one as a kid, and I’ve never been able to find one since.

    Oh, and MLB’s choice of hats for the Padres’ Swinging Padre left me disappointed.[/quote]

    This one?

    You can get it here.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 11:31 am |

    [quote comment=”39926″][quote comment=”39917″][quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    I think MLB should re-issue the early 1990s California Angels cap. It was all navy with the C and A interlocked, and a small halo over the A. I had one as a kid, and I’ve never been able to find one since.

    Oh, and MLB’s choice of hats for the Padres’ Swinging Padre left me disappointed.[/quote]

    This one?

    You can get it here.[/quote]

    That’s the one! Do I really need four ball caps in a week? I’ll have to ponder over this one. :o)

  • Kerry | January 10, 2007 at 11:38 am |

    Not to completely hijack the discussion…..

    but THIS has to be the UGLIEST jersey ever created….and they want $124.95 for it!!!!!

  • Thorold Blair | January 10, 2007 at 11:40 am |

    [quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    Second one

  • Ian K | January 10, 2007 at 11:54 am |

    [quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    The first reminds me of the 80s California Angels, back when my grandfather, an Anaheim native, used to complain that “they should be called the Anaheim Angels, they play in Anaheim!” He died in 1990 before Disney rightfully changed the name and then Arte Moreno screwed everything up.

    I tried shopping for 3 hats yesterday, but I just got a new Dodgers classic 5950 for Christmas and it’s hard for me to wear anything but Dodger blue with the interlocking LA. But I do have an affinity for the black SOX hat and the classic blue-on-orange Mets.

  • Rich Bruns | January 10, 2007 at 11:55 am |

    [quote comment=”39930″]Not to completely hijack the discussion…..

    but THIS has to be the UGLIEST jersey ever created….and they want $124.95 for it!!!!![/quote]

    That’s just awful.

    With all the discussion that goes on here with about template uniforms, whether it’s Nike, adidas, Puma or whoever… how bad would it be if Reebok would have a template like that, with the sleaves all ugly like that and the jersey plastered with different logos. Bad stuff.

  • WVU Tom | January 10, 2007 at 11:55 am |

    [quote comment=”39930″]Not to completely hijack the discussion…..

    but THIS has to be the UGLIEST jersey ever created….and they want $124.95 for it!!!!![/quote]

    WOW! And it doesn’t even mean anything! That’s even dumber than the hats/jersey that feature the logos of every MLB team.

  • Ian K | January 10, 2007 at 12:01 pm |

    [quote comment=”39933″]
    I do have an affinity for the black SOX hat and the classic blue-on-orange Mets.[/quote]

    I of course meant ORANGE-on-BLUE (no black in sight) and the Chisox

  • Metsfan AZ | January 10, 2007 at 12:04 pm |

    [quote comment=”39933″][quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    The first reminds me of the 80s California Angels, back when my grandfather, an Anaheim native, used to complain that “they should be called the Anaheim Angels, they play in Anaheim!” He died in 1990 before Disney rightfully changed the name and then Arte Moreno screwed everything up.

    I tried shopping for 3 hats yesterday, but I just got a new Dodgers classic 5950 for Christmas and it’s hard for me to wear anything but Dodger blue with the interlocking LA. But I do have an affinity for the black SOX hat and the classic blue-on-orange Mets.[/quote]
    I know you mean orange on blue. The orange button is a “new” thing right? My NE 5950 from 1991 or so doesn’t have the MLB patch on the back and has a blue button.

  • Kenny | January 10, 2007 at 12:04 pm |

    OK officially purchased this and this…the Brewers hat is on back order, but worth the wait

  • todd krevanchi | January 10, 2007 at 12:06 pm |

    [quote comment=”39904″][quote comment=”39891″]i cant believe that you would tarnish an otherwise fine article with the words “bobby knight”.
    he might have a greater number of total wins than smith, but that is the one and ONLY statistic in which knight is greater than smith at.[/quote]

    I would have to argue that point. I think Bob Knight has done more with less than Dean Smith ever did. Sure he had players. He had Scott May, Alan Henderson, Isiah Thomas, and Keith Smart but he was never able to get big time guys like Smith was. Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Jerry Stackhouse, Billy Cunningham, Sam Perkins, those were star players. With the exception of Thomas Knight never had a top recruit star player. That’s either a knock on Knights recruiting, or a credit to his feelings that you should get good people before good players. He has always graduated his players, something Dean Smith has a hard time saying toward the end of his tenure when leaving school early was becoming popular.

    If you ask me, Bob Knight is very close to the coach that Dean Smith was, if not equal or better. Dean Smith, maybe, was a better recruiter, but even that I find debatable.[/quote]

    how could you leave out cheaney?

    as far as recruiting goes, it is difficult to match up. eliminate stackhouse from the list of hoosiers and heels because he is from the new recruiting process, (mcd’s all america, parade, academy and prep school type players). those were all great players, not necessarily great recruits. in a sense, i would say someone like jeff mcinnis at unc was a bigger recruit than jordan, simply because of the time period, and the fact that he went to a factory like oak hill.

    its easy to look back at the players unc had and the ones that iu had and make opinions of them in college solely based on nba performance. we as fans are all guilty of that. i am anyway, look at a team like dook. ive always said if you go to dook, you are destined for nba mediocrity. its easy to recognize that unc has better nba names than iu.

    i understand what you are saying in the sense that, iu has had more steve eyl’s, and joe hillman’s than unc.

    as far as graduating his players, do you mean in 4 consecutive years of school or graduating period? by my research, the 2 are 1 percentage point apart in grad rate of players during their career, smith 97, knight 98… i think that is negligible.

    my issue with knight is simply his behavior. guys like wooden and smith had great success without tempers.

  • Dave S | January 10, 2007 at 12:13 pm |

    Any uniwatch readers in the Seattle area make sure you get down to Ebbets Field Flannels this weekend for their annual outlet sale. They have great vintage-styled jerseys, hats, and other stuff there and they have great deals during this sale. Great time to pick up some great old uni’s that you don’t see very often.

  • Kerry | January 10, 2007 at 12:14 pm |

    [quote comment=”39934″][quote comment=”39930″]Not to completely hijack the discussion…..

    but THIS has to be the UGLIEST jersey ever created….and they want $124.95 for it!!!!![/quote]

    That’s just awful.

    With all the discussion that goes on here with about template uniforms, whether it’s Nike, adidas, Puma or whoever… how bad would it be if Reebok would have a template like that, with the sleaves all ugly like that and the jersey plastered with different logos. Bad stuff.[/quote]
    The other jersey ISN’T AS BAD….and that’s only because the torso is one color. But it’s still pretty hideous.

  • Anthony Verna | January 10, 2007 at 12:17 pm |

    Why would I ever want a jersey that says “Super Bowl”?

  • Kerry | January 10, 2007 at 12:24 pm |

    [quote comment=”39944″]Why would I ever want a jersey that says “Super Bowl”?[/quote]
    No idea….the hats and t-shirts aren’t as bad….but I still fail to see the appeal of such merchandise.

  • Metsfan AZ | January 10, 2007 at 12:25 pm |

    [quote comment=”39944″]Why would I ever want a jersey that says “Super Bowl”?[/quote]
    To sing the National Anthem? Or you were an usher. Those are the only people I see wearing that crap.

  • Pat | January 10, 2007 at 12:27 pm |

    Todd,
    I’m trying to keep this as short as possible so as to not completely override the subject of the post. But, temper issues aside, which I think we should do when discussing a coach’s success, you make good points. You can’t measure a coach’s success by how cool they were under pressure. If so then Art Shell would be the greatest coach in the NFL right now. That guy is like a rock, he doesn’t move, yell, or throw anything no matter how awful his team is playing. A coach’s success is measured on how well his team plays, how much he gets out of his players and how much he wins. There’s no denying Bob Knights ability to win basketball games. There’s no one in the history of college basketball, to me, that gets more out of his players than Bob Knight. That to me is a successful coach.

    Also, I don’t think you can say his temper issues are all that important to his team since most of the time his outrages aren’t at his players with the exception of the “choking” incident at Indiana. And, I don’t think there is a more loyal coach in the game today, or maybe ever.

    Again, not trying to knock coach Smith, and you brought up some good points that I didn’t know (like his graduation rate), just saying you can’t truthfully say that Knight isn’t on the same level as him. You can say you don’t respect him as much, but not that he isn’t just as good a coach.

  • Vince Grzegorek | January 10, 2007 at 12:36 pm |

    [quote comment=”39870″]The links in the paragraph below are going to the same picture:

    Even though Phog had to retire from coaching (age limits) before Wilt Chamberlain joined the Kansas team in 1955, we do have this photo of the two together. Here is a photo of Wilt with his 1952 YMCA championship team from Philadelphia.[/quote]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince

  • todd krevanchi | January 10, 2007 at 12:47 pm |

    [quote comment=”39947″]Todd,
    I’m trying to keep this as short as possible so as to not completely override the subject of the post. But, temper issues aside, which I think we should do when discussing a coach’s success, you make good points. You can’t measure a coach’s success by how cool they were under pressure. If so then Art Shell would be the greatest coach in the NFL right now. That guy is like a rock, he doesn’t move, yell, or throw anything no matter how awful his team is playing. A coach’s success is measured on how well his team plays, how much he gets out of his players and how much he wins. There’s no denying Bob Knights ability to win basketball games. There’s no one in the history of college basketball, to me, that gets more out of his players than Bob Knight. That to me is a successful coach.

    Also, I don’t think you can say his temper issues are all that important to his team since most of the time his outrages aren’t at his players with the exception of the “choking” incident at Indiana. And, I don’t think there is a more loyal coach in the game today, or maybe ever.

    Again, not trying to knock coach Smith, and you brought up some good points that I didn’t know (like his graduation rate), just saying you can’t truthfully say that Knight isn’t on the same level as him. You can say you don’t respect him as much, but not that he isn’t just as good a coach.[/quote]

    i know. i just love sports debate…
    i guess i just like the way that dean smith went from A to B to get C (a win), than knight did. i just never saw the reason for being so abrasive if you can get the same result in a more “civilized?” manner.

  • Andy L | January 10, 2007 at 12:48 pm |

    A quick aside, in the 1923 KU photo the first man in the top row is legendary Kentucky coach Adolph Rupp.

  • Vince Grzegorek | January 10, 2007 at 12:58 pm |

    Two things:
    1. In trying to fix a link a minute ago everything beyond the excerpt in the piece may have indented itself and appeared italicized for a couple minutes. All fixed now.

    2. Good catch on the 1923 photo with Rupp in the top row.

  • Metsfan AZ | January 10, 2007 at 1:06 pm |

    ref pants just made the Simmons’ chat. (I am in a really nice toggle zone right now ALT-TAB, refresh, repeat. I may get nothing done today).

  • Eric | January 10, 2007 at 1:14 pm |

    For those who are uni hoops fans, there was a great article on headbands in the NY times this weekend.
    http://www.nytimes.c...

  • Rich Bruns | January 10, 2007 at 1:23 pm |

    [quote comment=”39942″]Any uniwatch readers in the Seattle area make sure you get down to Ebbets Field Flannels this weekend for their annual outlet sale. They have great vintage-styled jerseys, hats, and other stuff there and they have great deals during this sale. Great time to pick up some great old uni’s that you don’t see very often.[/quote]

    I’m going to spend entirely too much money on this site. Awesome stuff there. Thank you for linking it.

  • Mark in Shiga | January 10, 2007 at 1:34 pm |

    What number is that mascot wearing in the basketball photo? A0? It’s hard to read at that size.

  • tommy | January 10, 2007 at 2:03 pm |

    Completely off topic but…
    Anyone catch the Leafs/’Canes game last night? The Hurricanes’ Craig Adams had a namebar on his jersey that read C.ADAMS, y’know to distinguish himself from KEVYN ADAMS… who was traded a couple of days ago. I wonder if he’s going to keep the namebar(s) as is or if maybe it’s just the traing staff that are a bit slow in getting the new versions done.

  • Matthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 2:11 pm |

    [quote comment=”39956″]ref pants just made the Simmons’ chat. (I am in a really nice toggle zone right now ALT-TAB, refresh, repeat. I may get nothing done today).[/quote]

    Good, I’m glad I’m not the only one. Even with Uni Watch, a Simmons chat, and my boss being gone most of the morning, I’ve still gotten several things done today…such dedication has obviously earned me a long lunch break.

    Ed gaug, were you the one who mentioned owning a red Astros hat? I can’t make myself get one. I, in fact, refuse to acknowledge anything but the regular black hat with the red star. Something about those red hats just bothers me.

  • Vince Grzegorek | January 10, 2007 at 2:12 pm |

    [quote comment=”39960″]What number is that mascot wearing in the basketball photo? A0? It’s hard to read at that size.[/quote]

    If by “mascot” you mean the child in front in the picture, I’m pretty sure he’s also wearing “A1”, although it’s hard to tell since that’s the largest version of the picture I could find, and it gets pretty blurry to enlarge it.

  • ACC (the Brain) | January 10, 2007 at 2:30 pm |

    [quote comment=”39944″]Why would I ever want a jersey that says “Super Bowl”?[/quote]

    Only if you designed the logo or were part of the hosting committee? It’s one of the stupidest jerseys ever made. Wearing it in public would mean that I lost a bet.

    It’s almost as bad as buying the grey sweatshirt that has SPORTS ILLUSTRATED on it.

  • Michael Kramer | January 10, 2007 at 2:31 pm |

    The Chicago Tribune ran this article (requires free registration to view) today about the captain’s “C” for the Blackhawks. Coach Denis Savard announced that whenever the team’s usual captain, Adrian Aucoin, does not play, the Hawks will have someone else lined up to wear the C for that game, instead of going with three assistant captains (as they have been doing). Is this common practice in hockey?

    With everyone and his brother now regularly donning alternate sweaters, the uni-related implications of having a player wear the C for some games and not for others is astounding– one player may end up wearing six different jerseys in a season!

  • Anthony Verna | January 10, 2007 at 2:34 pm |

    [quote comment=”39975″][quote comment=”39944″]Why would I ever want a jersey that says “Super Bowl”?[/quote]

    Only if you designed the logo or were part of the hosting committee? It’s one of the stupidest jerseys ever made. Wearing it in public would mean that I lost a bet.

    It’s almost as bad as buying the grey sweatshirt that has SPORTS ILLUSTRATED on it.[/quote]

    Well. . . I do have an SI grey t-shirt. . . but I did get it for free.

  • Metsfan AZ | January 10, 2007 at 2:37 pm |

    [quote comment=”39978″][quote comment=”39975″][quote comment=”39944″]Why would I ever want a jersey that says “Super Bowl”?[/quote]

    Only if you designed the logo or were part of the hosting committee? It’s one of the stupidest jerseys ever made. Wearing it in public would mean that I lost a bet.

    It’s almost as bad as buying the grey sweatshirt that has SPORTS ILLUSTRATED on it.[/quote]

    Well. . . I do have an SI grey t-shirt. . . but I did get it for free.[/quote]
    I have the football phone.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 2:37 pm |

    [quote comment=”39976″]The Chicago Tribune ran this article (requires free registration to view) today about the captain’s “C” for the Blackhawks. Coach Denis Savard announced that whenever the team’s usual captain, Adrian Aucoin, does not play, the Hawks will have someone else lined up to wear the C for that game, instead of going with three assistant captains (as they have been doing). Is this common practice in hockey?[/quote]

    It’s uncommon, but not unheard of. The Minnesota Wild have the same sort of system. Jacques Lemaire appoints a captain for a month at a time. Brian Rolston has worn it twice this season already.

    [quote comment=”39976″]With everyone and his brother now regularly donning alternate sweaters, the uni-related implications of having a player wear the C for some games and not for others is astounding– one player may end up wearing six different jerseys in a season![/quote]

    Possibly. However, you’d probably see one player be the captain for a period of time. It’s far less work for the equipment managers who already have one of the busiest jobs on the team.

  • PDXclark | January 10, 2007 at 2:52 pm |

    SNIP I know you mean orange on blue. The orange button is a “new” thing right? My NE 5950 from 1991 or so doesn’t have the MLB patch on the back and has a blue button. SNIP

    My 5950 from ~1994 has a blue button, WITH an MLB logo on the back. I think the orange button came about when they started dabbling in black hats. +/- 1997.

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 3:04 pm |

    [quote comment=”39963″][quote comment=”39956″]ref pants just made the Simmons’ chat. (I am in a really nice toggle zone right now ALT-TAB, refresh, repeat. I may get nothing done today).[/quote]

    Good, I’m glad I’m not the only one. Even with Uni Watch, a Simmons chat, and my boss being gone most of the morning, I’ve still gotten several things done today…such dedication has obviously earned me a long lunch break.

    Ed gaug, were you the one who mentioned owning a red Astros hat? I can’t make myself get one. I, in fact, refuse to acknowledge anything but the regular black hat with the red star. Something about those red hats just bothers me.[/quote]

    yeh that was me. i actually bought the red hat because i own 4 navy blue hates (red sox, twins “TC”, nationals and padres road) so i decided on a lighter color hat. I still wish i owned one of the navy blue with gold star that i had in middle school. i also wish i didnt lose my black pirates hat with yellow brim and red outline and underbrim when i was riding my motorcycle on the highway this summer.

  • al | January 10, 2007 at 3:08 pm |

    [quote comment=”39913″]Trying to decide between two Angels Cooperstown collection hats…this one and this one

    What does everyone think?[/quote]

    Tough choice !! I think the lower case a is more
    attention grabbing, maybe ’cause it’s older. But the Capital A harkens back to Frank Tanana/Nolan Ryan and Mickey Rivers.

    Roll the dice, Kenny.

  • Dfree | January 10, 2007 at 3:11 pm |

    i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding. I am drawn to uniform stuff that is atleast somewhat new. nothing against history, just not every single day, it seems like the site has turned into an old black and white photo review of stuff no one really gives a rip about, great they wore vertically striped socks in the twenties on some polo team, i realize the editor of this site doesn’t like new uniforms, and i guess that favor for tradition has totally encompassed the site, its just sad because i think, i could be wrong here, a lot of people are drawn to this topic because of current uniforms or more current, that used to be the topics, now that has been moved to the back burner, rarely talked about, the lead is these old stories that i think the editor is overestimating everyone’s interest. Sorry for the long post, just saying what i have been thinking for a few months, ive been reading this site from its start, rarely comment, just thought this needed to be said. i am dissapointed and saddened with the direction of the site.

  • Matthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 3:18 pm |

    [quote comment=”39992″][quote comment=”39963″][quote comment=”39956″]ref pants just made the Simmons’ chat. (I am in a really nice toggle zone right now ALT-TAB, refresh, repeat. I may get nothing done today).[/quote]

    Good, I’m glad I’m not the only one. Even with Uni Watch, a Simmons chat, and my boss being gone most of the morning, I’ve still gotten several things done today…such dedication has obviously earned me a long lunch break.

    Ed gaug, were you the one who mentioned owning a red Astros hat? I can’t make myself get one. I, in fact, refuse to acknowledge anything but the regular black hat with the red star. Something about those red hats just bothers me.[/quote]

    yeh that was me. i actually bought the red hat because i own 4 navy blue hates (red sox, twins “TC”, nationals and padres road) so i decided on a lighter color hat. I still wish i owned one of the navy blue with gold star that i had in middle school. i also wish i didnt lose my black pirates hat with yellow brim and red outline and underbrim when i was riding my motorcycle on the highway this summer.[/quote]

    I still have my navy blue Astros hat with the gold star, but sadly it doesn’t fit me anymore. It still enjoys a place of honor on the shelf above my desk along with my navy blue Astros hat from the mid 80s and my Colt .45’s hat.

  • Richard | January 10, 2007 at 3:19 pm |

    [quote comment=”40000″]i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding. I am drawn to uniform stuff that is atleast somewhat new. nothing against history, just not every single day, it seems like the site has turned into an old black and white photo review of stuff no one really gives a rip about, great they wore vertically striped socks in the twenties on some polo team, i realize the editor of this site doesn’t like new uniforms, and i guess that favor for tradition has totally encompassed the site, its just sad because i think, i could be wrong here, a lot of people are drawn to this topic because of current uniforms or more current, that used to be the topics, now that has been moved to the back burner, rarely talked about, the lead is these old stories that i think the editor is overestimating everyone’s interest. Sorry for the long post, just saying what i have been thinking for a few months, ive been reading this site from its start, rarely comment, just thought this needed to be said. i am dissapointed and saddened with the direction of the site.[/quote]

    if you hate the direction of the site, go elsewhere. lots of us are intrigued and interested in what Paul and others find and discuss in their daily postings. we also have comments which deal with current uniform items, from the small details of stitching to the larger color issues. if you are that upset about the things you are reading, find another website to look at. the rest of us will still be here.

  • Steve | January 10, 2007 at 3:26 pm |

    http://www.mickeyspl...

    When did the A’s ever wear these black hats?

  • patrick | January 10, 2007 at 3:28 pm |

    I knew that was going to happen since Apple has been Cingular exclusive with their iTunes phones over the past 2 years. I had Verizon and changed over to T-Mobile to get the Sidekick this summer. In Connecticut, Cingulars service is pretty good, better than T-Mobile’s and way worse than Verizon’s. Verizon’s downfall is their lack of interesting phones.

    Cingular has always had the better phones. I’m in my 6th year with cingular/AT&T and have had absolutely zero problems. I went to school in hartford and had amazing reception. I live on long island now, and prior ot the AT&T/cingular merging service was alright. However, after the merge its absoultely perfect. On to the iPhone, as with everything Mac touches, theyve gone and put everyone else at a distant second. Unfortunately, Mac has a tendency to rush products out (Jobs admitted he wanted to show it before it was released on FCC website). This generally causes lots of bugs with the first line. I love what jobs has done, from using MAC OSX to the buttonless phone, but I will wait another year or so before I get one. I had a first generation iPod, a first generation powerbook and now I have a 40 gig video ipod, a macbook pro, and hopefully for my birthday, AppleTV

  • Ian K | January 10, 2007 at 3:28 pm |

    [quote comment=”40000″]i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding. [/quote]

    You are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you severely underestimate the amount of work it must take to produce a new uni-related topic 5 days a week, sometimes more. This is a small time operation with a low budget. When the blog was started, uni news went from bi-monthly to daily. Not an easy task, if you ask me.

  • Minna H. | January 10, 2007 at 3:29 pm |

    [quote comment=”40000″]i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding. I am drawn to uniform stuff that is atleast somewhat new. nothing against history, just not every single day, it seems like the site has turned into an old black and white photo review of stuff no one really gives a rip about, great they wore vertically striped socks in the twenties on some polo team, i realize the editor of this site doesn’t like new uniforms, and i guess that favor for tradition has totally encompassed the site, its just sad because i think, i could be wrong here, a lot of people are drawn to this topic because of current uniforms or more current, that used to be the topics, now that has been moved to the back burner, rarely talked about, the lead is these old stories that i think the editor is overestimating everyone’s interest. Sorry for the long post, just saying what i have been thinking for a few months, ive been reading this site from its start, rarely comment, just thought this needed to be said. i am dissapointed and saddened with the direction of the site.[/quote]

    Dfree, I like the old-timey stuff. I went back through the archives and by eyeballing the titles, I estimate maybe five entries that were devoted mostly to old unis in the last two months. That’s not much at all. Also, as Richard pointed out, we all post whatever we want in the comments.

    My advice to you is to start posting about what you want to see. Usually, someone can be pulled into a good discussion about unis regardless of if they are old or new and regardless of sport. If you want more current unis, then post something interesting about a uni you like/dislike, etc. The comments section is for us, the readers, which includes you.

    Also, Paul is always amenable to suggestions, so you can e-mail him if you have ideas for topics. Just my two-cents’ worth.

  • Matthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 3:32 pm |

    [quote comment=”40006″]http://www.mickeysplace.com/images/athleticssunday.jpg

    When did the A’s ever wear these black hats?[/quote]

    Not sure they ever wore black and green together. While in Philadelphia, they did wear navy blue hats with a white A: http://www.baseballh...

    This continued for a few years in Kansas City. They switched to the now standard green and gold in 1967, just before they moved to Oakland.
    http://www.baseballh...

  • Richard | January 10, 2007 at 3:41 pm |

    [quote comment=”40012″][quote comment=”40006″]http://www.mickeysplace.com/images/athleticssunday.jpg

    When did the A’s ever wear these black hats?[/quote]

    Not sure they ever wore black and green together. While in Philadelphia, they did wear navy blue hats with a white A: http://www.baseballh...

    This continued for a few years in Kansas City. They switched to the now standard green and gold in 1967, just before they moved to Oakland.
    http://www.baseballh...

    it’s their official alternate cap. probably a sunday thing, or special days “(possibly with the black jersey)

  • Matthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 3:44 pm |

    [quote comment=”40015″][quote comment=”40012″][quote comment=”40006″]http://www.mickeysplace.com/images/athleticssunday.jpg

    When did the A’s ever wear these black hats?[/quote]

    Not sure they ever wore black and green together. While in Philadelphia, they did wear navy blue hats with a white A: http://www.baseballh...

    This continued for a few years in Kansas City. They switched to the now standard green and gold in 1967, just before they moved to Oakland.
    http://www.baseballh...

    it’s their official alternate cap. probably a sunday thing, or special days “(possibly with the black jersey)[/quote]

    I figured that’s what it was, but have they ever actually worn it? That thing is pretty fugly.

  • Anthony Verna | January 10, 2007 at 3:51 pm |

    1) Logo creep (but we knew that)

    2) Names on the backs of tennis players. What do you think?

    http://sportsillustr...

  • Minna H. | January 10, 2007 at 3:58 pm |

    [quote comment=”40019″]1) Logo creep (but we knew that)

    2) Names on the backs of tennis players. What do you think?

    http://sportsillustr...

    Anthony, thanks for linking to my guilty pleasure—Rafa. Why guilty? Because he’s twenty. I’m—not. Anyway, I agree with the person who wrote the question. There is no need in tennis for names on the back of the ‘uniform’ and is clearly a marketing tool. What next, golfers with names on their backs?

  • Matthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 4:05 pm |

    [quote comment=”40025″][quote comment=”40019″]1) Logo creep (but we knew that)

    2) Names on the backs of tennis players. What do you think?

    http://sportsillustr...

    Anthony, thanks for linking to my guilty pleasure—Rafa. Why guilty? Because he’s twenty. I’m—not. Anyway, I agree with the person who wrote the question. There is no need in tennis for names on the back of the ‘uniform’ and is clearly a marketing tool. What next, golfers with names on their backs?[/quote]

    Not to split hairs Minna, but on the PGA tour, caddies wear their player’s last name on their smocks: http://external.cach...

    And the smocks are usually a color designated for the tournament. This can lead to some eye straining color clashes at times: http://espn-att.star...

    I know what you mean though, names on uniforms is a team sport thing and shouldn’t really go beyond that. Of course you could argue that Tiger does wear his name, in some manner, in virtually every tournament he enters: http://www.onlygolfa...

  • todd krevanchi | January 10, 2007 at 4:18 pm |

    [quote comment=”40006″]http://www.mickeysplace.com/images/athleticssunday.jpg

    When did the A’s ever wear these black hats?[/quote]

    this is from ’00, to wear with the black jersey
    http://cache.gettyim...

  • Nolan | January 10, 2007 at 4:25 pm |

    [quote comment=”40000″]i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding. I am drawn to uniform stuff that is atleast somewhat new. nothing against history, just not every single day, it seems like the site has turned into an old black and white photo review of stuff no one really gives a rip about, great they wore vertically striped socks in the twenties on some polo team, i realize the editor of this site doesn’t like new uniforms, and i guess that favor for tradition has totally encompassed the site, its just sad because i think, i could be wrong here, a lot of people are drawn to this topic because of current uniforms or more current, that used to be the topics, now that has been moved to the back burner, rarely talked about, the lead is these old stories that i think the editor is overestimating everyone’s interest. Sorry for the long post, just saying what i have been thinking for a few months, ive been reading this site from its start, rarely comment, just thought this needed to be said. i am dissapointed and saddened with the direction of the site.[/quote]

    The thing is it doesn’t matter what you think.
    What uniwatchblog.com is when you get down to it is a place for Paul Lukas to share his love of uniforms. We’re not being asked to read these posts, but they’re here and read them if you want.

    I don’t find it appropriate to go to somebody’s house and say “this place has potential too bad you f’d it up”.

    So, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion we are guests here not the owners.

  • Miguel | January 10, 2007 at 4:25 pm |

    [quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.

  • Minna H. | January 10, 2007 at 4:27 pm |

    [quote comment=”40026″]

    Not to split hairs Minna, but on the PGA tour, caddies wear their player’s last name on their smocks: http://external.cach...

    And the smocks are usually a color designated for the tournament. This can lead to some eye straining color clashes at times: http://espn-att.star...

    I know what you mean though, names on uniforms is a team sport thing and shouldn’t really go beyond that. Of course you could argue that Tiger does wear his name, in some manner, in virtually every tournament he enters: http://www.onlygolfa...

    Damn. YOu’re right, Matthew. I completely forgot about that. And hey, splitting hairs is what we do best around here. As for Tiger, well, he is in a class of one, so he can do whatever he wants!

  • Kenny | January 10, 2007 at 4:31 pm |

    [quote comment=”39951″][quote comment=”39947″]Todd,
    I’m trying to keep this as short as possible so as to not completely override the subject of the post. But, temper issues aside, which I think we should do when discussing a coach’s success, you make good points. You can’t measure a coach’s success by how cool they were under pressure. If so then Art Shell would be the greatest coach in the NFL right now. That guy is like a rock, he doesn’t move, yell, or throw anything no matter how awful his team is playing. A coach’s success is measured on how well his team plays, how much he gets out of his players and how much he wins. There’s no denying Bob Knights ability to win basketball games. There’s no one in the history of college basketball, to me, that gets more out of his players than Bob Knight. That to me is a successful coach.

    Also, I don’t think you can say his temper issues are all that important to his team since most of the time his outrages aren’t at his players with the exception of the “choking” incident at Indiana. And, I don’t think there is a more loyal coach in the game today, or maybe ever.

    Again, not trying to knock coach Smith, and you brought up some good points that I didn’t know (like his graduation rate), just saying you can’t truthfully say that Knight isn’t on the same level as him. You can say you don’t respect him as much, but not that he isn’t just as good a coach.[/quote]

    i know. i just love sports debate…
    i guess i just like the way that dean smith went from A to B to get C (a win), than knight did. i just never saw the reason for being so abrasive if you can get the same result in a more “civilized?” manner.[/quote]

    Except the players that could play for Bobby Knight said they were better off after playing for him because he taught them more than basketball…this my biggest issue when people want “bash” Bobby Knight…anyone who wathced the congratulations to him after he won 880 would have seen the compassion he is capable of

  • Brian D J | January 10, 2007 at 4:34 pm |

    That A’s hat went with the A’s “Black Out” alternate in the late 90’s. I have the hat

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 4:35 pm |

    [quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I’ll second that motion. Vinnie is a major player in the Uni Watch guard.

  • Chad G | January 10, 2007 at 4:40 pm |

    [quote comment=”40000″]i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding. I am drawn to uniform stuff that is atleast somewhat new. nothing against history, just not every single day, it seems like the site has turned into an old black and white photo review of stuff no one really gives a rip about, great they wore vertically striped socks in the twenties on some polo team, i realize the editor of this site doesn’t like new uniforms, and i guess that favor for tradition has totally encompassed the site, its just sad because i think, i could be wrong here, a lot of people are drawn to this topic because of current uniforms or more current, that used to be the topics, now that has been moved to the back burner, rarely talked about, the lead is these old stories that i think the editor is overestimating everyone’s interest. Sorry for the long post, just saying what i have been thinking for a few months, ive been reading this site from its start, rarely comment, just thought this needed to be said. i am dissapointed and saddened with the direction of the site.[/quote]

    I think you have to realize that this site is not even a year old, and compared to the July/August/September months this is a down current uniform discussion time. When baseball is in full swing and the NFL and college football are starting up, thats when we have the most to talk about. Now college football is over, there are only a few NFL teams still playing and hockey and basketball just aren’t as popular. Basketball especially is tougher to talk about simply because they don’t have as much uniform/equipment as baseball and football.

    Now I’m not saying I love pictures of teams from the early 1900’s, but that isn’t up to me. Paul and Vince can put anything they want to up here. If it doesn’t interest you then don’t read it. It isn’t Paul’s job to entertain you all day, you aren’t paying him…although this site has been my savior from endless amounts of boredom at work.

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 4:41 pm |

    [quote comment=”40008″]I knew that was going to happen since Apple has been Cingular exclusive with their iTunes phones over the past 2 years. I had Verizon and changed over to T-Mobile to get the Sidekick this summer. In Connecticut, Cingulars service is pretty good, better than T-Mobile’s and way worse than Verizon’s. Verizon’s downfall is their lack of interesting phones.

    Cingular has always had the better phones. I’m in my 6th year with cingular/AT&T and have had absolutely zero problems. I went to school in hartford and had amazing reception. I live on long island now, and prior ot the AT&T/cingular merging service was alright. However, after the merge its absoultely perfect. On to the iPhone, as with everything Mac touches, theyve gone and put everyone else at a distant second. Unfortunately, Mac has a tendency to rush products out (Jobs admitted he wanted to show it before it was released on FCC website). This generally causes lots of bugs with the first line. I love what jobs has done, from using MAC OSX to the buttonless phone, but I will wait another year or so before I get one. I had a first generation iPod, a first generation powerbook and now I have a 40 gig video ipod, a macbook pro, and hopefully for my birthday, AppleTV[/quote]

    Steve Jobs just single handedly made everything I own obsolete. I can’t stay away from his products though. I bought a g4 iMac in high school and since then i bought a g4 iBook and intel core duo iMac. 1G, 3G and 5G video iPods as well. AppleTV will be in my living room my the time baseball season comes around so I can link it with my computer and Tivo.. Also i found an app that rips all my DVDs into iTunes so i can access those too.

    and back to the uni-related stuff
    i think i finally decided on the three hats im going to buy.
    Red Sox

    Cards Alt…i love the bird on bat logo
    New D-Backs…something noone in CT will have

  • S Bennett | January 10, 2007 at 4:42 pm |

    [quote comment=”39894″]I saw this on Wikipedia..some rugby teams (Leicester Tigers and Bristol) used to use letters instead of numbers.[/quote]

    And lit looks like this Apparently, it’s just the top flight team that went with the more common number approach.

    I could swear a number of years ago there was one Rugby side, probably from the UK, that took it to the next level. The team would line up on the touch line before games and the numbers on the kits combined spelled out the name of the club.

    Any takers in looking for that one?

  • Minna H. | January 10, 2007 at 4:44 pm |

    [quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I third that motion, Miguel. Motion passed! Ek? Oh, sorry. I forgot this isn’t a voting thing.

  • Richard | January 10, 2007 at 4:46 pm |

    [quote comment=”40050″][quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I third that motion, Miguel. Motion passed! Ek? Oh, sorry. I forgot this isn’t a voting thing.[/quote]

    pink? or purple?
    he IS an intern…

  • Minna H. | January 10, 2007 at 4:50 pm |

    [quote comment=”40051″][quote comment=”40050″][quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I third that motion, Miguel. Motion passed! Ek? Oh, sorry. I forgot this isn’t a voting thing.[/quote]

    pink? or purple?
    he IS an intern…[/quote]

    Richard, so cruel! I say silver. Can’t have black because that’s my color when I finally convince Paul I get my own box.

    Wait! Brown for the Browns.

  • Richard | January 10, 2007 at 4:52 pm |

    [quote comment=”40052″][quote comment=”40051″][quote comment=”40050″][quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I third that motion, Miguel. Motion passed! Ek? Oh, sorry. I forgot this isn’t a voting thing.[/quote]

    pink? or purple?
    he IS an intern…[/quote]

    Richard, so cruel! I say silver. Can’t have black because that’s my color when I finally convince Paul I get my own box.

    Wait! Brown for the Browns.[/quote]

    hahaha
    Brown could work…but we still have to see it – and light brown doesn’t work with the Browns.

    wait, he gets to choose if he gets one. Vince – what would you like for a color

  • Metsfan AZ | January 10, 2007 at 5:02 pm |

    [quote comment=”40053″][quote comment=”40052″][quote comment=”40051″][quote comment=”40050″][quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I third that motion, Miguel. Motion passed! Ek? Oh, sorry. I forgot this isn’t a voting thing.[/quote]

    pink? or purple?
    he IS an intern…[/quote]

    Richard, so cruel! I say silver. Can’t have black because that’s my color when I finally convince Paul I get my own box.

    Wait! Brown for the Browns.[/quote]

    hahaha
    Brown could work…but we still have to see it – and light brown doesn’t work with the Browns.

    wait, he gets to choose if he gets one. Vince – what would you like for a color[/quote]
    Brown with orange text??

  • todd krevanchi | January 10, 2007 at 5:06 pm |

    …waiting to see the deluge of people wanting their own color boxes. i thought thats what getting a personal avatar was for.
    isnt there a way besides using gravatar.com to get a personal avatar?

  • Vince Grzegorek | January 10, 2007 at 5:08 pm |

    Short of having a neon lights flash around every one of my posts, I would choose Caffrey’s green, in honor of one of my favorite beers that is no longer made.

    In all honesty, it doesn’t matter that much to me, I’m just happy every day when I don’t see any “Vince, you suck at the intern thing” posts.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 5:13 pm |

    [quote comment=”40058″]
    In all honesty, it doesn’t matter that much to me, I’m just happy every day when I don’t see any “Vince, you suck at the intern thing” posts.[/quote]

    Vince, you su… never mind. :o) BTW, I’m kidding.

    Isn’t the idea behind Uni Watch to keep things looking uniform? Stick with the current colours, and let the important people (Paul, Ek, Vinnie) have colours as recognition of what they mean to this site.

  • S Bennett | January 10, 2007 at 5:19 pm |

    Also, as Richard pointed out, we all post whatever we want in the comments.

    Exactly. Personally, I find myself “leafing” through the archival stuff lately – mostly because I really couldn’t give a rat’s about basketball, and until the All-Star game, things are relatively quiet on the NHL front.

    That said, I’ve been eating up the recent presence of soccer talk. Great stuff lately, and it’s on that note I offer up the following:

    Today, letters on the backs of players. The other day, I twas Glasgow Rangers kits. Today, I offer up kits from Glasgow with nothing on the backs, but an assful of number.

    Probably been mentioned before (and please, tell me if it has) but for the longest time, Celtic didn’t wear numbers on their shirts. Instead, they worre them on their shorts (wore them on the front too).

    I don’t think they used them all the time (alternate kits and European competitons had regular numbers on backs, I believe), but it was a very cool change of pace for the Scottish league.

    I remember being pretty disappointed when this happened. Still am, to tell the truth. I like little twists that aren’t mere gimmicks.

  • Teebz Says Shut Up Tod H. | January 10, 2007 at 5:37 pm |

    Tod, shut up. If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.

  • Chuck Ryals | January 10, 2007 at 5:41 pm |

    my favorite Angels cap is the one with the silver halo on top of the crown, 1966-70. those were cool!

  • Anthony Verna | January 10, 2007 at 5:42 pm |

    Hey Vince, are you in NYC? Any chance you’d want to laugh through the Case-NYU game together in a couple Sundays?

  • concealed78 | January 10, 2007 at 5:49 pm |

    [quote comment=”40002″][quote comment=”39992″][quote comment=”39963″][quote comment=”39956″]ref pants just made the Simmons’ chat. (I am in a really nice toggle zone right now ALT-TAB, refresh, repeat. I may get nothing done today).[/quote]

    Good, I’m glad I’m not the only one. Even with Uni Watch, a Simmons chat, and my boss being gone most of the morning, I’ve still gotten several things done today…such dedication has obviously earned me a long lunch break.

    Ed gaug, were you the one who mentioned owning a red Astros hat? I can’t make myself get one. I, in fact, refuse to acknowledge anything but the regular black hat with the red star. Something about those red hats just bothers me.[/quote]

    yeh that was me. i actually bought the red hat because i own 4 navy blue hates (red sox, twins “TC”, nationals and padres road) so i decided on a lighter color hat. I still wish i owned one of the navy blue with gold star that i had in middle school. i also wish i didnt lose my black pirates hat with yellow brim and red outline and underbrim when i was riding my motorcycle on the highway this summer.[/quote]

    I still have my navy blue Astros hat with the gold star, but sadly it doesn’t fit me anymore. [/quote]

    You know Distantreplays.com is now selling reproductions of that hat. The orignial flat-embroidered sharp-ended version, too.

  • Matthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 5:51 pm |

    Thanks for the tip concealed78, I’ll check it out.

  • Vince Grzegorek | January 10, 2007 at 5:57 pm |

    Sorry Anthony, still live in Cleveland.

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 6:02 pm |

    i appriciate it concealed78. ill check it out for that ‘stros hat and the others i had in my childhood.

  • Brian Crisp | January 10, 2007 at 6:07 pm |

    The blue and gold ‘stros hat is on distantreplays
    I has one as a kid too.

  • Original Jim | January 10, 2007 at 6:20 pm |

    [quote comment=”40063″][quote comment=”40052″][quote comment=”40051″][quote comment=”40050″][quote comment=”40034″][quote comment=”39948″]

    I went back in and fixed the link. There should now be a link to this pic of Wilt and Phog.

    -Vince[/quote]

    Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    I third that motion, Miguel. Motion passed! Ek? Oh, sorry. I forgot this isn’t a voting thing.[/quote]

    pink? or purple?
    he IS an intern…[/quote]

    Richard, so cruel! I say silver. Can’t have black because that’s my color when I finally convince Paul I get my own box.

    Wait! Brown for the Browns.[/quote]

    Please give Minna her own shaded box. That way I know which posts have nothing at all to do with unis, and I can avoid accidentally reading them.

    PS – While we are at it, let’s make Krevanchi’s posts see through. No one would have to read his assanine, half-baked theories and disgusting, disturbing fetishes.[/quote]

    Tom, is that you?

  • concealed78 | January 10, 2007 at 6:36 pm |

    [quote comment=”40070″]i appriciate it concealed78. ill check it out for that ‘stros hat and the others i had in my childhood.[/quote]

    No problem. And it’s on sale. Reminded myself to get the flat-embroidered 1991-1992 White Sox cap with no MLB logo on the back. I haven’t worn that cap in 14 years and thankfully I got one in my size while it was still in stock. Did they have the navy & gold Astros hat in your size?

    Distantreplays is having a sale that basically covers your shipping. I doubt this counts as spam since they are an official sponsor of Uni Watch. They even had some flat-embroidered current versions of the Red Sox, Yankees, Pirates, Cubs, Dodgers and the ever glorious blue and orange Mets caps if you people care about those 3-D issues.

  • Joe | January 10, 2007 at 6:46 pm |

    [quote comment=”39876″] I do think, though, that playing basketball in the days of Phog Allen would have been extremely uncomfortable and unneccesarily warm. He seems to stay away from the use of cotton and it’s breathability in athletic clothing and use wool as much as possible and sometimes flannel, both of which seem to be cold weather fabrics. However, despite the season it’s played in, basketball is not a cold weather sport and I can’t fathom putting on a pair of wool socks to play basketball in, or an itchy, sweaty, wool jersey to run around in. I can’t imagine how soaked in sweat the jerseys must be for the property man.

    That treatise by Phog was written back before the multi-million dollar arenas and practice facilities we have today. Basketball back then was played in armories (more often than not unheated) and auditoriums. The Nets (ABA) played in a unheated arena in Commack, Long Island when they started and I remember reading about Wilt’s 100 point game against the Knicks where some players said that gym/arena in Hershey wasn’t heated as well and that was in the 60’s. So the use of a “cold weather” material for a uniform might have made more sense.
    In addition I think it was a durability issue(same reason MLB used flannel for so long; stronger and easier to maintain) Phog mentions that looking good is half the battle and by the end of a season cotton may not have looked as good as wool (kind of like how white undershirts go grey over time).

  • Johnny O | January 10, 2007 at 6:47 pm |

    From 1970-77, the Milwaukee Brewers used the “Barrel Man” logo. Does anybody know where I can get a hat or t-shirt with this logo on it? I live in Wisconsin and can’t find anything anywhere. Not even at Miller Park.

    Since there have been a lot of talk about retro baseball logos, what do all of you think is the best “old school” logo? I personally think the Brewwers “MB Glove” logo is the best. I am so glad the Crew decided to bring back Reto Sundays this past year. I am open to other considerations though. I love retro logos. Any thoughts??

    Barrel Man

    MB Glove

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 6:53 pm |

    [quote comment=”40075″][quote comment=”40070″]i appriciate it concealed78. ill check it out for that ‘stros hat and the others i had in my childhood.[/quote]

    No problem. And it’s on sale. Reminded myself to get the flat-embroidered 1991-1992 White Sox cap with no MLB logo on the back. I haven’t worn that cap in 14 years and thankfully I got one in my size while it was still in stock. Did they have the navy & gold Astros hat in your size?

    Distantreplays is having a sale that basically covers your shipping. I doubt this counts as spam since they are an official sponsor of Uni Watch. They even had some flat-embroidered current versions of the Red Sox, Yankees, Pirates, Cubs, Dodgers and the ever glorious blue and orange Mets caps if you people care about those 3-D issues.[/quote]

    They did have it in my size but i already spent 60 bucks on hats today. ill have to check back in a few weeks.

    I was looking at the sales items though and i found this shirt.
    Did the Cards ever use this logo, cause its the most badass thing I’ve seen that is supposed to be a vintage logo.

  • ed gaug | January 10, 2007 at 6:57 pm |

    [quote comment=”40077″]From 1970-77, the Milwaukee Brewers used the “Barrel Man” logo. Does anybody know where I can get a hat or t-shirt with this logo on it? I live in Wisconsin and can’t find anything anywhere. Not even at Miller Park.

    Since there have been a lot of talk about retro baseball logos, what do all of you think is the best “old school” logo? I personally think the Brewwers “MB Glove” logo is the best. I am so glad the Crew decided to bring back Reto Sundays this past year. I am open to other considerations though. I love retro logos. Any thoughts??

    Barrel Man

    MB Glove[/quote]

    Expos for sure!

  • diz | January 10, 2007 at 7:04 pm |

    [quote comment=”40060″] Also, as Richard pointed out, we all post whatever we want in the comments.

    Exactly. Personally, I find myself “leafing” through the archival stuff lately – mostly because I really couldn’t give a rat’s about basketball, and until the All-Star game, things are relatively quiet on the NHL front.

    That said, I’ve been eating up the recent presence of soccer talk. Great stuff lately, and it’s on that note I offer up the following:

    Today, letters on the backs of players. The other day, I twas Glasgow Rangers kits. Today, I offer up kits from Glasgow with nothing on the backs, but an assful of number.

    Probably been mentioned before (and please, tell me if it has) but for the longest time, Celtic didn’t wear numbers on their shirts. Instead, they worre them on their shorts (wore them on the front too).

    I don’t think they used them all the time (alternate kits and European competitons had regular numbers on backs, I believe), but it was a very cool change of pace for the Scottish league.

    I remember being pretty disappointed when this happened. Still am, to tell the truth. I like little twists that aren’t mere gimmicks.[/quote]

    When the rules changed domestically, so that they had to have numbered jerseys, they tried in vain to keep the backs clean. They lasted a few months before taking up green ones the next season. In 1995-6, they put the green numbers inside a tight, white rectangle, which actually looked quite good (sorry, no pic).

  • Brian Crisp | January 10, 2007 at 7:09 pm |

    To Johnny O:
    Colt .45s
    Hard to beat that logo, noway you could get away with it in these days.

  • Paul Lukas | January 10, 2007 at 7:14 pm |

    [quote comment=”40000″]i am going to say what i think a lot of readers of this site think, i am getting really tired of the general direction of this site, i mean WAY too much old crap that the editor is finding.[/quote]

    I’ve been away all day and am just now catching up on today’s comments. Coupla thoughts on the above-quoted sentiment:

    1) I’m aware that I’ve been running lots of historical stuff lately. This is partly because I happen to have found a lot of old material lately, partly because other people have been submitting lots of interesting old material lately, and partly because the sport that’s my strongest suit — baseball — is currently on winter break. It’s not part of a calculated move. Just the way things have worked out. When possible, I try not to have two consecutive days of history-based content. (Disclaimer: I may have a historical entry tomorrow.)

    2) One of my goals with Uni Watch has always been to document and maintain a historical record of uniforms. I mean, I’m not pompous enough to call myself a historian, but — actually, yes, I am pompous enough: I’m a uniform historian. So yeah, the “old crap” is important to me. More important than current stuff? Not necessarily. But not less important, either (especially since I write almost exclusively about current stuff on ESPN.com). If the historical stuff isn’t your bag, there isn’t a whole lot I can do about that. Which brings us to…

    3) I do care what readers like and dislike, what they’re interested in, etc. But I ultimately care more about what I’m interested in. Sometimes those two things overlap, sometimes they don’t. I can live with that. You’ll all have to live with it too.

    Thanks to those who’ve participated in this discussion — it’s always good know what people are thinking.

    [quote comment=”40034″]Anyone else think that Vince deserves a unique color-shaded comment entry, like Paul and Eck? He is the “official” UniWatch intern, after all.[/quote]

    Ek is on vacation, but I’m gonna have him rig up a color for Vince when he gets back.

  • Paul Lukas | January 10, 2007 at 7:17 pm |

    [quote comment=”40077″]From 1970-77, the Milwaukee Brewers used the “Barrel Man” logo. Does anybody know where I can get a hat or t-shirt with this logo on it? I live in Wisconsin and can’t find anything anywhere. Not even at Miller Park.[/quote]

    Make it yourself! There are plenty of on-demand places where you can make one T-shirt (including Zazzle.com, which makes all the Uni Watch merch).

  • Ben | January 10, 2007 at 7:24 pm |

    Maybe this has already been mentioned, or maybe this is the wrong venue to discuss it, but does anyone know what cap the Met player is wearing in this picture?

    from ESPN

    I found it today on the ESPN MLB site as the headlining photo for a story on Tim Raines. I’m thinking it’s from a September 11 memorial game? But what’s the logo?

  • Brian Crisp | January 10, 2007 at 7:35 pm |

    [quote comment=”40099″]Maybe this has already been mentioned, or maybe this is the wrong venue to discuss it, but does anyone know what cap the Met player is wearing in this picture?

    from ESPN

    I found it today on the ESPN MLB site as the headlining photo for a story on Tim Raines. I’m thinking it’s from a September 11 memorial game? But what’s the logo?[/quote]
    Kid of looks like this to me NYPD shield

  • Paul Lukas | January 10, 2007 at 7:39 pm |

    [quote comment=”40102″][quote comment=”40099″]Maybe this has already been mentioned, or maybe this is the wrong venue to discuss it, but does anyone know what cap the Met player is wearing in this picture?

    from ESPN

    I found it today on the ESPN MLB site as the headlining photo for a story on Tim Raines. I’m thinking it’s from a September 11 memorial game? But what’s the logo?[/quote]
    Kid of looks like this to me NYPD shield[/quote]

    That’s exactly what it is. After 9/11, the Mets wore first-responder caps (NYPD, FDNY, paramedics, etc.) during the last few weeks of the 2001 season, and they continue to wear them every year on Sept. 11.

  • Allan Chandler | January 10, 2007 at 7:43 pm |

    Not sure this is appropriate here, but I coach a boys middle school basketball team and have been offered input on uniform design for next year’s new togs.

    Needless to say, I am excited. School colors are red and yellow, and the nickname is “Lions.” Anyone care to offer suggestions or examples of good unis? I have my own ideas, but I’m curious as to what this group would say.

    I already have nixed pinstripes and the Nike Template.

  • Kel | January 10, 2007 at 7:48 pm |

    Vince…I thought your column was great. Ignore the dumbasses. :)

    Anyhow…I found this part of Phog’s “rules” amusing, considering all the whining people do about having different colored jerseys/shorts:

    “However, regardless of the material used, the pants should be white in color. When the colored shirt is used, the white pants break the monotony and will often relieve a color that does not have all the advantages of optic attraction. If color is used on the pants, it should be only a thin silk ribbon trim around the leg and down the side seams, the same shade as the jersey.”

  • Johnny O | January 10, 2007 at 7:48 pm |

    Thanks for the idea Paul. The shirts are in the process of being made. They will be here well in time for the upcoming Brewers season!

    Also, I stumbled accross this today. The logo for the Men’s Final Four in Atlanta this year. Nice use of the peach I think.

    2007 Men’s Final Four

  • Johnny O | January 10, 2007 at 7:50 pm |

    Remember the peach was used in 2002 when the final four was in Atlanta also.

    2002 Final Four

  • Randy Miller | January 10, 2007 at 7:50 pm |

    Think such a treatise could come from the collegiate coaching ranks of today? Think Bob Knight has some opinions on whether a particular jersey is going to chafe his player? Or cares in the least about how a sock could possibly bunch up around the knee, making the player appear disheveled and the stocking too large? Probably not.

    Great post today. Actually, though, I do know one coach who was just as concerned as Phog Allen about the proper wear of socks…John Wooden. I know that I have read on some bio that Wooden spent a good portion of the first team practice explaining how to correctly don and wear socks so as to avoid blisters.

  • Brian Crisp | January 10, 2007 at 8:04 pm |

    [quote comment=”40106″]Not sure this is appropriate here, but I coach a boys middle school basketball team and have been offered input on uniform design for next year’s new togs.

    Needless to say, I am excited. School colors are red and yellow, and the nickname is “Lions.” Anyone care to offer suggestions or examples of good unis? I have my own ideas, but I’m curious as to what this group would say.

    I already have nixed pinstripes and the Nike Template.[/quote]
    I think most people can agree on one principle: keep it simple.
    Think old school Rockets uniforms. With Lions on the front and VAL school initials on the back. A small lion logo on shorts.
    Of course if I was any good at this stuff I’d be in a different line of work.

  • Chad G | January 10, 2007 at 8:22 pm |

    [quote comment=”40106″]Not sure this is appropriate here, but I coach a boys middle school basketball team and have been offered input on uniform design for next year’s new togs.

    Needless to say, I am excited. School colors are red and yellow, and the nickname is “Lions.” Anyone care to offer suggestions or examples of good unis? I have my own ideas, but I’m curious as to what this group would say.

    I already have nixed pinstripes and the Nike Template.[/quote]

    Allan, how bout these, simple and crisp:

    Home
    Away

  • Adam | January 10, 2007 at 8:25 pm |

    Hey all. I mostly lurk, but I’m looking for some input regarding which hat I should get at mlb.com. I’m only getting one (my little brother is getting the other 2). I’m trying to keep it under $25, and I’d really like a throwback. Any thoughts?

  • Paul Lukas | January 10, 2007 at 8:38 pm |

    [quote comment=”40063″]Please give Minna her own shaded box. That way I know which posts have nothing at all to do with unis, and I can avoid accidentally reading them.

    PS – While we are at it, let’s make Krevanchi’s posts see through. No one would have to read his assanine, half-baked theories and disgusting, disturbing fetishes.[/quote]

    Unacceptable. Stop the personal invective — now.

    And nobody else respond to this bullshit. Just because a flasher opens his raincoat doesn’t mean you have to look.

  • S Bennett | January 10, 2007 at 8:42 pm |

    [quote comment=”40118″]Hey all. I mostly lurk, but I’m looking for some input regarding which hat I should get at mlb.com. I’m only getting one (my little brother is getting the other 2). I’m trying to keep it under $25, and I’d really like a throwback. Any thoughts?[/quote]

    For all you capsters looking for a great cap, you need these three little words:

    Old. School. Cubs.

    Pure gold, baby!

  • Johnny O | January 10, 2007 at 8:54 pm |

    Wow, that one web site is a treasure of logos. Here is the 2007 MLB All-Star Game Logo.

    2007 MLB All Star Game

  • Mattthew S. | January 10, 2007 at 8:59 pm |

    [quote comment=”40075″][quote comment=”40070″]i appriciate it concealed78. ill check it out for that ‘stros hat and the others i had in my childhood.[/quote]

    No problem. And it’s on sale. Reminded myself to get the flat-embroidered 1991-1992 White Sox cap with no MLB logo on the back. I haven’t worn that cap in 14 years and thankfully I got one in my size while it was still in stock. Did they have the navy & gold Astros hat in your size?

    Distantreplays is having a sale that basically covers your shipping. I doubt this counts as spam since they are an official sponsor of Uni Watch. They even had some flat-embroidered current versions of the Red Sox, Yankees, Pirates, Cubs, Dodgers and the ever glorious blue and orange Mets caps if you people care about those 3-D issues.[/quote]

    I haven’t looked into sizes yet, but I did also find the navy blue Astros hat with the orange star white ‘H’. The Astros wore these part time from 1980-83, and exclusively from 1984-1992. The one I own is a 6 7/8 and so it hasn’t fit me since I was a kid. This kinda made my day. http://www.distantre...;

    Also, on ESPN’s ‘Stump the Schwab’ today, the Schwab was wearing a 1975 Jose Cruz jersey. It was oddly slimming.

    http://www.baseballh...

  • Brian Crisp | January 10, 2007 at 9:10 pm |

    [quote comment=”40129″][quote comment=”40075″][quote comment=”40070″]i appriciate it concealed78. ill check it out for that ‘stros hat and the others i had in my childhood.[/quote]

    No problem. And it’s on sale. Reminded myself to get the flat-embroidered 1991-1992 White Sox cap with no MLB logo on the back. I haven’t worn that cap in 14 years and thankfully I got one in my size while it was still in stock. Did they have the navy & gold Astros hat in your size?

    Distantreplays is having a sale that basically covers your shipping. I doubt this counts as spam since they are an official sponsor of Uni Watch. They even had some flat-embroidered current versions of the Red Sox, Yankees, Pirates, Cubs, Dodgers and the ever glorious blue and orange Mets caps if you people care about those 3-D issues.[/quote]

    I haven’t looked into sizes yet, but I did also find the navy blue Astros hat with the orange star white ‘H’. The Astros wore these part time from 1980-83, and exclusively from 1984-1992. The one I own is a 6 7/8 and so it hasn’t fit me since I was a kid. This kinda made my day. http://www.distantre...;

    Also, on ESPN’s ‘Stump the Schwab’ today, the Schwab was wearing a 1975 Jose Cruz jersey. It was oddly slimming.

    http://www.baseballh...
    I’ve got picture of me in that hat as a kid, no clue where it i now. My wife recently bought me one fo these replicas. I love it.

    Lids

  • Bryan S | January 10, 2007 at 9:32 pm |

    Anyone have any ideas about the Midget/Baby standing on the basketball in the picture at the top of the article???

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 10:40 pm |

    [quote comment=”40141″]Anyone have any ideas about the Midget/Baby standing on the basketball in the picture at the top of the article???[/quote]

    It’s a child, and his legs go all the way to the floor. The basketball is in fornt of his legs.

  • Teebz | January 10, 2007 at 10:41 pm |

    front*

    I’m too tired after hockey to type. Or edit. :o)

  • Brian Crisp | January 10, 2007 at 10:43 pm |

    Same picutre, it looks like the guy on the right is wearing a sweater and only one striped sock.

  • Denis | January 10, 2007 at 10:53 pm |

    Michigan Wolverine with a sailor cap, I am not sure if we mentioned this one:
    http://www.distantre...;

  • Denis | January 10, 2007 at 10:56 pm |

    An Alabama one also:
    An Alabama one also
    http://www.distantre...;

  • nico | January 10, 2007 at 11:20 pm |

    S Bennett: From historicalkits.co.uk:

    Due to the idiosyncratic views of their chairman, Bob Kelly, Celtic did not wear team numbers until 1960, when they were applied to the front and back of players’ shorts. This odd tradition survived until 1995 although numbered shirts were worn in European competition after 1975.

    I also remember uni numbers being mandatory from the ’58 World Cup, at least for the national sides.

  • Matt from the 'Ville | January 10, 2007 at 11:38 pm |

    Paul and gang, I know that we have talked about the sleeveless (or Vest) base ball jerseys before but to may limited knowledge I don’t remember who was the first team to do it. I came across this A’s jersey on distant memories. that leads me to believe that it was the A’s.

  • S Bennett | January 10, 2007 at 11:40 pm |

    I also remember uni numbers being mandatory from the ’58 World Cup, at least for the national sides.[/quote]

    It would appear that numbers made their way to the WC as early as 1950. Not sure if this means *everyone* had numbers, though.

  • Matt from the 'Ville | January 10, 2007 at 11:42 pm |

    Never mind it looks like Pittsburgh wore them in 1960. That A’s jersey is from ’69.

  • Nicole | January 10, 2007 at 11:44 pm |

    [quote comment=”40077″]From 1970-77, the Milwaukee Brewers used the “Barrel Man” logo. Does anybody know where I can get a hat or t-shirt with this logo on it? I live in Wisconsin and can’t find anything anywhere. Not even at Miller Park.

    Since there have been a lot of talk about retro baseball logos, what do all of you think is the best “old school” logo? I personally think the Brewwers “MB Glove” logo is the best. I am so glad the Crew decided to bring back Reto Sundays this past year. I am open to other considerations though. I love retro logos. Any thoughts??

    Barrel Man

    MB Glove[/quote]

    I’m also in Milwaukee and haven’t seen anything for sale, but I have to say that my best source for Barrel Man stuff has been the Brewers themselves. I have a mustard yellow cap featuring the Barrel Man that was a giveaway at a game, either last season or the season before.

    I’d try ebay, since I’m not giving mine up!

  • Nicole | January 10, 2007 at 11:49 pm |

    Sorry that’s all a link. It’s late and I’m dumb.

  • Paul Lukas | January 11, 2007 at 12:28 am |

    [quote comment=”40182″]I know that we have talked about the sleeveless (or Vest) base ball jerseys before but to may limited knowledge I don’t remember who was the first team to do it. I came across this A’s jersey on distant memories. that leads me to believe that it was the A’s.[/quote]

    The first team to wear a vest was the 1940 Cubs.

  • Jon in SLC | January 11, 2007 at 1:03 am |

    I know that we may have discussed this on here before, but what are the rules on college football teams and supplying the offense with a game ball? Is this done throughout the season or just the title or bowl games? I saw this photo after the Gators win ans then after hearing more about the Romo ball, I began to wonder. Florida wasn’t the only team with their logo on the ball. Ohio St. did too.
    And am I just tired, or did a post I was going to respond to disappear?

  • Jon in SLC | January 11, 2007 at 1:14 am |

    After further research, it seems that not only are the balls stamped with the team logos. But they also are made by different manufacturers.

  • ed gaug | January 11, 2007 at 1:58 am |

    [quote comment=”40199″]I know that we may have discussed this on here before, but what are the rules on college football teams and supplying the offense with a game ball? Is this done throughout the season or just the title or bowl games? I saw this photo after the Gators win ans then after hearing more about the Romo ball, I began to wonder. Florida wasn’t the only team with their logo on the ball. Ohio St. did too.
    And am I just tired, or did a post I was going to respond to disappear?[/quote]

    The team on offense brings their own ball out on the field for every possesion. The balls used for kicking are given to the person wearing the “K” vest on the sidelines so they can not be tampered with during the game to help the kicker.

  • sportability | January 11, 2007 at 3:19 am |

    Re: the 52 LSU team, you think opposing teams lined up and shouted ‘Bingo’?

    They finished 3-7, so it might have been quite a few.

  • Richard | January 11, 2007 at 8:10 am |

    don’t forget – if we’re going to Distantreplays.com, we should all click on the link at the top of the site here, and use the portal to go to the website.

  • Adam | January 11, 2007 at 9:42 pm |

    The Mariners will be wearing a30th Anniversary Patch in 2007.

    I think it looks very good – although a bit too big?